Tug of war makes your dogs mean!

corgipower

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OK...

no more playing tug.
no more playing chase.
no more playing keep away.

No wonder Tyr disappeared for 2 hours a couple weeks ago. He's not able to have any fun here.

:rolleyes:
 

Doberluv

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No tug, no chase, no keep away. "What else can't we do Mom? No pretend bitey play, no play- growly talk? Too many regulations for me Mom." LOL.
 

Doberluv

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All with silly, good heartedness. Really. First, trying to make points, then being silly to reiterate the points. Not with malace in mind.
 

Zoom

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You might want to rethink the "good heartedness" part. There's a difference of opinion, yeah. That's been long established. She's backed up her view points with valid sources, you all have backed up your points with your sources. She's not said "don't have fun with your dogs" just "wait until an appropriate time in age and training to introduce games that have caused issues in other dogs before." We all know that the trainers here have a great grasp on HOW to play these games, but not everyone does. Those same owners who will feed Purina because the commercials tell them it's great for their dogs, worship Ceasar Millan as the God of dog training and still think that everything their dog does is related to dominance are the same people who should not be playing tug, keep away or chase with their puppies. We've all agreed on that. But that IS the majority of the dog owning population out there, so her points and concerns are just as valid as those who are saying that it's not an issue when done CORRECTLY. THAT is the key word there.
 
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Neither Argon or Neon play tug. Actually, neither one has much interest in toys period. Argon has a very soft nature, and I haven't had enough time with the Neener to know what is his personality and what are fear based reactions.
Lilly, who was quite possibly the most stupendous dog who ever lived, loved to play tug. In other situations she was gentle enough to carry a balloon in her mouth, and take a treat so softly you never even felt her lips. We actually had a tug session the day we had her PTS and her eyes were shining.
Radar enjoys it, but because of his age and lack of teeth (We've tried everything, and the darn things keep falling out!), we don't play it any more. He is a bit more hard mouthed, but I think that's the terrier in him, more than the games we play.
 

Doberluv

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That's a matter of opinion too, Zoom, as to whether her sources are valid or not. I happen to disagree with her sources and with her position on the dangers of tug of war.

Like you say, everyone is entitled to his/her opinion about this and to which sources to give more weight. I happen to go along with those opinions of people highly eductated in animal behavior. She tends to go along with opinions of some trainers, of whom, I have no idea what their credentials are.

Yes, things can go wrong with tug of war if handled badly. (as can things go bad with anything, such as Dekka explained) But in my experience, that is extremely rare for the game of tug to present as dominance aggression. Like I have mentioned before, a lot of regular people, not particularly savvy with dog behavior, play with their dogs and nothing awful ever comes of it. Its been explained why it is not a dominance type of behavior. If a dog is already a resource guarder, that must be dealt with and as Corgi P. explained, even then this can be used as a training tool for that. The fact is that the vast majority of dogs will never develop dangerous behavior problems from playing the game, tug of war. There are many, many other things that contribute to rotten behavior that carry much more weight and significance.

Yes, we all have a right to our opinions. I've never denied anyone that, for heaven's sake. It's all in the interpretation, I guess as to how someone views "making fun" of someone or simply disagreeing with them. I don't need to re-think what I have in my mind or in my heart. I already knew what I felt like when I posted.
 
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Zoom

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What we know to be dominance aggression and what John Q. Public percieves as "dominance aggression" are two totally different things. I know the sources Smkie is speaking of, some of them personally. One of the main consulting trainers for Pets For Life is the same trainer I apprenticed under a couple of years ago, Mary Sellaro. She's been in the biz for over 20 years and I highly respect her opinion. Pets For Life in and of itself is not necessarily a training school. It's along the same lines as the Delta program, except with stricter requirements for passing and qualification. It's the main therapy dog program in Kansas City and surrounding.

Her old boss I never had the chance to meet but listening to what Smkie has told me of apprenticing under him and the awards his dogs have won and the fact that even years after his death, his dogs' lines are still being used for hardcore SAR, hunting and field trialing work speaks volumes to me as both a trainer and breeder.

So you disagree with her sources because you've never heard of them. I've never heard of half the people you've tossed out as proof (with the obvious exceptions like Pat Miller, etc) but I'm still willing to accept that they know what they're talking about.

The percentage of people having big issues with their dogs caused by improper tug, teasing meant as "games" etc might not be huge when taken in light with how many people "never" have issues, but how many of the former dogs have been dumped, PTS or abused because of mishandling in the early years? How many of the trainers here have dealt with dogs that have life-long issues stemming from improper introduction? I know Dr2Little has had a couple of those cases in the last year or so, including that one cockapoo many people here said to put down because it "was a biter and too big of a risk to rehome", when it was a dog who had been taught to severely resource guard because of improper handling due to the above?

So just because YOU or even your neighbors "never" had problems, doesn't mean those problems don't exist. Just because you and your neighbors don't have reactions to the H1N1 vaccine, doesn't mean that it's perfectly safe to recommend to everyone out there.

I'm in the camp that says if tug and associated games are introduced properly, it's fine. But again, 90% of the dog owning public are, for lack of a better word, morons when it comes to "proper" play and training. They might be morons due to lack of misinformation or just sheer ignorance, but the fact remains that there are loads of unstable dogs out there because the owners messed up with simple games at crucial stages.
 

Doberluv

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Tug of war makes your dogs mean!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's what my relatives believe.
I play tug of war daily with my dogs. And I don't understand how it can make them mean! Any ideas? Has anyone ever heard of this?

They heard Ruckus and Lynn growling and really putting on a show during tug of war and they said "See, you are making them mean!"
I think this is just ignorance on their part, but I didnt know what to say back other than "No, its not"
so what does, or doesnt tug of war make a dog mean?

when we play tug, the game starts and stops when I say. We all take turns winning and losing. The dogs never bite my hand by accident, even though I do play with both dogs at the save time. I can take it away from them when I ask for it with no problem.
__________________
This is not just about my dogs or my neighbors' dogs. I've been very involved with a large number of dogs owned by all kinds of owners for 40-50 years Zoom. So, don't presume to think you know where my experience and education lies.

Tug of war, in and of itself, in general, is highly unlikey to make a dog "mean." Period. There are a lot of other factors that are likely to play into ruining a dog. And a lot of worse things people do to create an unstable dog, along with a dog's temperament.

I think the OP should be re-read and let's keep this in context. To answer the op's question, in the context presented and based on the information given, my answer still stands as, "no."
 

bubbatd

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I had a man who called me for a puppy and I told him I wouldn't be breeding for at least a year . I had no litters I could recommend but I guess he ended up getting a Golden mill puppy . He called me back about a years later with a problem . The dog was biting at his and he wife's hands . First thing I asked was what types of games he played with the pup .......he wore gloves and played tug and play !! After a 1/2 lecture he finally admited he should have been smarter !
 

elegy

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I've never heard of half the people you've tossed out as proof (with the obvious exceptions like Pat Miller, etc) but I'm still willing to accept that they know what they're talking about.
jean donaldson, pat miller (chapter on tug in her play book), patricia mcconnell (who also has a section on chase games in her play book), susan garrett (big name agility trainer), leslie mcdevitt (control unleashed), jane killion (section on teaching/encouraging tug in her pigs fly book), pam dennison
 

bubbatd

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I really would have had to teach my Goldens to play tug of war with me . I'm with Smkie 100% ..... sure some dogs may need it and want it . I never was one to introduce it .
 

Dekka

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Zoom you should never just accept a source as creditable unless you know where its from, or their credentials.

Not from anyone.

I have to say whilst I have met some amazing therapy dogs, many of those dogs are innately sweet, empathetic and wonderful, not due to the product of amazing training. Therapy dog trainers are not known for their vast skill and knowledge of dog behaviour (Not saying they can't be very knowledgable.. its just not something they are known for)

In many cases they are good at picking dogs who will be great therapy dogs, and fostering those traits. Its very different than training.. you can't 'make' a great therapy dog, though you can help foster those traits.

I find one of the places that the 'dominance myth' still holds sway is in the therapy dog communities. (and it your post confirms its not just the ones local to me).. because it doesn't effect the development of a therapy dog. Because beyond basic manners a therapy dog isn't very highly trained in anyway.. so there is no need to go beyond the most basic of dog behaviour understanding.

If you want to know about dog training/ dog behaviour go to peer accepted experts in that area. I wouldn't go to a behaviourist for intimate knowledge of how therapy dogs work..
 

Doberluv

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I had a man who called me for a puppy and I told him I wouldn't be breeding for at least a year . I had no litters I could recommend but I guess he ended up getting a Golden mill puppy . He called me back about a years later with a problem . The dog was biting at his and he wife's hands . First thing I asked was what types of games he played with the pup .......he wore gloves and played tug and play !! After a 1/2 lecture he finally admited he should have been smarter !
__________________


Is that the only thing you asked him? What else was he doing with his puppy? That's pretty unparsimonious to take one puppy, one owner, one behavior with no other trials; no other puppies, no other behaviors on the part of the owners and come to a conclusion. How can you prove that it was tug of war that caused the problems. As it's been mentioned a kazillion times on here by most of the members, we've all played tug with our dogs, as have people we've known and there were no such problems. I know people who scold their dogs for growling out of fear and they develop biting problems. I know people who grab their dogs' collar and scold them and from then on, every time the neck or collar is touched, the dog is distrustful and bites. I could go on and on and on about the various things that can cause behavior problems. I deal with them all the time. Tug has never come up yet as a single cause for biting or other behavior problems. One would have to know what kind of relationship a person has with his dogs, among a host of other factors.
 

corgipower

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So you disagree with her sources because you've never heard of them.
I don't know if I've heard of them or not. I don't recall their names being mentioned. It's hard to give validity to something when the source is unknown.

The percentage of people having big issues with their dogs caused by improper tug, teasing meant as "games" etc might not be huge when taken in light with how many people "never" have issues, but how many of the former dogs have been dumped, PTS or abused because of mishandling in the early years? How many of the trainers here have dealt with dogs that have life-long issues stemming from improper introduction? I know Dr2Little has had a couple of those cases in the last year or so, including that one cockapoo many people here said to put down because it "was a biter and too big of a risk to rehome", when it was a dog who had been taught to severely resource guard because of improper handling due to the above?
How much of the mishandling that leads to problems of biting and guarding is truly due to games being improperly taught? IME, the majority are not due to the way games are played, but due to a lack of structure in general. The dog isn't taught to play tug incorrectly, he is not taught to do anything such as sit, wait, down, come, leave it, out. He is not socialized. He is not taught bite inhibition.

Out of my dogs - both current and past - the most aggressive dog doesn't play. He doesn't play tug, he doesn't play chase, he doesn't play keep away. He isn't a playful dog in general. He is the worst resource guarder of all of mine. I can trace this back to three things -- his breeding, his early puppy days (when he was still with littermates) and his early training when I was taught to use compulsion.

Nyx is the one with the least amount of bite inhibition and self control. I sometimes play tug with her, but not often as it makes her way too worried. She prefers fetch. Her issues of biting and lack of control can be very much attributed to her breeding, her general personality, and likely a thyroid problem.

In 9 years as a trainer, I haven't seen any dogs whose problems were a result of playing with their dog ~ whether play was done correctly or incorrectly. It's not really an issue of whether or not the dog plays tug, it's an issue of whether or not the dog is taught self control, wait, out, bite inhibition. All of those can be taught during a game of tug or separately - or not taught.

I have sent out some feelers to people I respect in the dog world.
IOW, you don't respect anyone here. I personally have great respect for some of the chazzers who have posted in this discussion.
 

smkie

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I took a dog that was a basket case of nerves and issues and helped him become rock solid in some darn uncomfortable situations. He certainly wasn't a naturally calm and easy going dog. He was strung too tight and flighty, skittish, aggressive, and would not stop barking. Zoom saw Pepper first hand, so she knows too that I am not speaking out of my hat. Pepper was a dog that had given up on people and sought only her own way in this world. I can only back up what i have done and write about the people that helped me get there and go by what they have taught me which was not to do the very things that you are saying is fine to do with a very young pup. I would never play keep away ever.

I can take my dogs out and give them the kind of life that is anything but boring. Guess whatever I am doing, works for us and it works very well. THey are fit and trim, have a hundred percent recall, are non aggressive to both people and other animals. THey are able to run the woods or valley or off leash parks and bother no one with either humping, or barking. They heel beautiful with or without a leash. Pepper is doing better and better at proper placement now. THey do not hike their legs on people's plants, and Victor gives back to the community a hundred fold. Pepper has gone from the dog that no one wants to the dog that everyone would like to have.THey are not the first dogs that i have trained like this. CHarlie saved my life twice yet never had to be trained as a watchdog. SAme goes for Mary. THey both knew instinctively when to bare their teeth and when not to. ALL of my dogs have been this way rescue or brand new. So make fun all you want. My opinion is that i pray to God people think twice before doing these games with very young untrained dogs and that they do not let other people do this either.
 
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Boemy

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Some people in here are getting seriously out of line just because Smkie disagrees on this issue. People should be free to disagree on Chaz without being dogpiled (no pun intended), mocked, and teased.
 

corgipower

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OK...

no more playing tug.
no more playing chase.
no more playing keep away.

No wonder Tyr disappeared for 2 hours a couple weeks ago. He's not able to have any fun here.

:rolleyes:
sheesh
I had no idea this would cause so much trouble. :mad:

No tug, no chase, no keep away. "What else can't we do Mom? No pretend bitey play, no play- growly talk? Too many regulations for me Mom." LOL.
Thank you Carrie for seeing the humor. :D

Now you guys are just making fun of Smkie. Nice.
Some people in here are getting seriously out of line just because Smkie disagrees on this issue. People should be free to disagree on Chaz without being dogpiled (no pun intended), mocked, and teased.
Apparently we're the only ones though that are in a humorous mood today.

 

Zoom

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:rolleyes: I presume just as much about you as you're presuming about me, Smkie and the people we've worked with.

Most of what I've and Smkie have been pointing out in this thread are not for the regulars and trainers here on Chaz. Again we've already established that the Chaz crowd aren't really the ones we have to worry about taking "tug" improperly.

It's the thousands of lurkers that look at this site, and by this point this thread, and take away only the bare skimmings of what they've read. FOR THEM, those that still believe complusion and alpha rolling are the best ways to teach a dog, introducing tug into that is going to result in issues. Corgipower said it herself, her own dog has aggressive issues that, in part, stem back to his early training. When you have shelters pushing Ceasar Millan, BarkBusters and SMS as "The Sources" WTF do you think is going to happen when they bring tug into the game? They're going to end up with a dog that has no fricking idea of the boundries, is riled up past his threshold and bites. Then that dog is labeled "aggressive" and shipped off to the shelter.

Like I said, I've used tug since I was a kid as a way of making training fun and boosting confidence. I was also one of those "odd kids" who read every single book on dogs, training, etc that I could pull out of the library, so I knew from an early age that there were specific "rules" to follow. My childhood dog was the most timid thing ever when we first got her; someone had beat the snot out of her for the first 2 years of her life and then dumped her two weeks before she had a litter of pups. Once she came to live with us, tug was one of those things I used to help get her out of her shell and give her some confidence. I don't think it's an inherently "bad" game...but so many, many other factors come into play and *that* is why is dangerous to give a blanket approval.

We're all saying the exact same thing, just no one wants to admit it. Everyone is packing up and not giving any sort of credence to anyone else who isn't line-stepping with the popular opinion. I'm really not sure when or why you all decided that Smkie didn't know a single thing she was talking about and therefore wasn't worth listening to, even a little bit. I've seen what she's done with Vic and Pepper and other dogs people have brought to her for training. You don't get results like she does on accident.
 

Doberluv

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What's that thing on the rabbit? LOL. A reflector? Sometimes its just my goofiness and not any personal attack at all, so don't put words in my mouth (or in my fingers). I will attack ideas, methods or theories I don't believe in, but I would never say anything against the person's very character in a hurtful way...not intentionally, anyhow. (except when I think they're abusing a dog) I like Smkie a TON! And I think she has loads of wisdom and a nice, calm way with dogs. I do, however disagree with certain things, such as this. Making fun of an idea is not the same thing as making fun of the human being. So, harumph!
 

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