My Adel gave birth to 10 puppies

so your saying that if a dog dies of a snake bite thats natures way of saying "the dog wasnt fit"
if a dog dies during whelp thats natures way of saying that dog and her puppies were unfit to be a part of this world
a dog dies of a mass infection...oh well who care its natures way of saying it wasnt fit enough.

i dont know any NORMAL person who has their homes set to the exact same temperature every day...
and i agree that dogs and kids should be alowed ot go outside and play and get dirty, thats completly different than dening your dog any kind of vet care (snake bites ARE an emergency, but according to you, nope, we'll just let a snake bite heal itself, if the dog doesnt survive the snake bite...it was OBVIOUSLY genetically unsound and therefore unfit to live...

I think i am ill now. THe thought of no vet care just hits me right to the core.

Like wise Smkie !!! Why good for me and for the vets .!!?? I did thorough health checks before breeding including worm checks . After the whelp I took Mom and pups in for health checks and the shot to clear out her uterus . Took in stool samples of pups and them for follow ups and shots . All were socialized from day one until they went home ....both inside the house and outside when they were old enough . Good luck !!!

I really don't agree with your attitude of letting mother nature take its course. I think as a pet owner and breeder you have a responsibility to your pets to give them necessary medical attention. Also I agree with others, I would never buy a puppy from you. When I got Mina she was raised in a similar environment to your pups, never in a house nothing more than her mothers dog house and left to free roam. She was simply a free puppy from an accidental litter which I think is a key difference, you purposely bred these puppies. This being said, she had a rough time when we brought her home because her socialization was lacking so much and it made it much harder on us. I don't see what you're charging $700 a puppy for? What exactly does that cover? You do your own vaccinations which is cheap, you simply let them outside in a wooden box, you do no health testing on your dogs, in my opinion your only out to make money and I think that's wrong. You say you want to go about the natural way, but I think it's just an excuse because you're only in it to make a profit. I'm sorry if I come across as harsh, but really do you even worm your pups?

See, everyone here is anthropomorphising their dogs, which is not a bad thing, I know I do with my own dog.

However, the OP is treating the dog as an ANIMAL which is why people are so up in arms.

They never said they don't EVER see a vet - in an emergency they do (we don't know how they define emrgency as yet).

How do you know he does no health testing - he's spoken about genetic faults?

MANY people do their own vaccinating, I have heard it myself MANY times on this very board.

I think people just can't imagine having a different attitude to dogs than their own cushty fluffly pampered view.

Your post is more about me, then about my dogs. This is what I see: your ideological base is threatened and you are irritated by my unconventional approach. De worming is easy and cheap. Yes, I save money and I want some profit. Are you not from America? Profit is good for our economy! I got my dogs not for free, shipping alone is expensive and troublesome. However, I carefully selected breeders and found most important details about way of life and work of parents of puppies I was buying. Now, I money back guarantee their genetic health and working talents in certain areas. Does it make sense to you? No show champions among ancestors. I personally consider show champs among parents as a red flag; it spells inbreeding and past selection for a hollow purpose to win a show. I still have four puppies not booked. I bred my dogs, because I believe they are among the best and I can make future owners of my puppies happier, then if they would go after champ parents. My Adel has changed a lot. She is one man's dog, very faithful to me alone in the whole world. She cannot be stolen alive. I am flattered. The father, Timur, is very different; he is absolutely loving and universally friendly dog.

I have been biting my tounge on this but now I have to say..... this is a very unethical, BYB "breeder".

and why is it OK if "good" breeders make a profit if they do "this, this, and that" but not OK if they aren't raising litters or caring for their dogs like YOU want them to? Because it'll eventually go back to the dogs?

Not all the time. . .

so maybe I should get some unfixed dogs, put them outside with a wooden box and let them breed. $700 bucks a pup, when all im spending is food and minimum vet care. sounds like a pretty sweet deal. I should've been a breeder! buying the breeding dogs in the first place does cost money, but just 1 litter at 700 a pup for 10 puppies covers WAY more than that lol forget college! :rofl1:

^^^That is what is happening here^^^^

Maybe we should ask ALL breeders to give us figures on how much they spent on the litter and then we can accuse them for 'overcharging' as well? So like I said, just because YOU don't agree with how he chooses to care for his dogs, he shouldn't make a profit? I never said I agreed with how he cared for his puppies, just saying many things are done differently in every hobby, and I fail to see the abuse in this situation. I would rather people who ruin breeds to stop breeding. This guy? Obviously seems to care about what he's producing (otherwise why would he have a guarantee and care about working ability, let alone bring dogs over from two different countries!).

What was the sire like/ how was he chosen? To me it all banks on that (and whether his bitch hunts)

If he were out to make money, he wouldn't be saying "let nature take its course." He would spend a few $$ on a pup that needed it so he could sell it later. He also wouldn't have a such a good guarantee. Also, he wouldn't have waited till 3 years to breed her.

Fransheska, you have a GSD with some moderate fear issues, right? If you had, say, a police dog. That did its job properly. And say GSD's had a low incidence of hip dysplasia (like <2%). If you were to breed your female police dog to another police dog, and have the pups on a sidewalk (we're going to assume passersby will just ignore them), and you handled them and spent time with them (a fair bit of time because they need to be responsive to the handler), you would probably end up with pretty good pups.

1.6% of Salukis have HD, according to the OFA. I believe this guys hunts from what he said about "flashing on a rabbit." His dog works in the pursuit that the breed was meant to- that is, they are lead somewhere by the handler, game is found, then they are let go to catch it. They are raised outside, in what looks like a fairly rustic setting, like what they will spend their lives working in.

Most people here are getting sentimental about it. Look at what works IN PRACTICE (literally and not literally). We know this does, because this kind of treatment brought our various working breeds to their healthy selves... typically, when these working breeds started getting treatment that allowed for weaker dogs to slip beneath the radar they started getting less and less healthy and "workable." The best working GSD's come out of gnarly, poor communist states (former Czechoslovakia & the DDR). Think Border Patrol kennels. Now, I don't know this for sure, but I'm going to guess that these good working lines were raised outside in cold, metal runs, with probably a doghouse and some straw. Yet somehow, they are the best GSD lines we have. Do you think that it was in spite of their treatment, or partially because of it?

The goal in breeding working dogs is not to get the maximum number of pups. It's not to save everybody. It's to make dogs that can work hard for many years. If you think working breeds should be pets first and foremost, you're coming from a different mindset, that to my knowledge has yet to develop a working breed.

The OP is breeding for keen working and hunting ability, it's a different mindset. No, it doesn't appear that his dogs lead pampered, cushy lives, but so what? It appears that they are leading long, healthy and well-loved lives. I'm sure he socializes the pups, you can't have a good hunting dog if it's scared of everything that moves.

He feeds raw, does minimal vaccinations, his dogs get to do what they're bred for and act like dogs, not furry children that are stuck in a crate 20 out of 24 hours in a day. Isn't that what we're after in so many other respects?

I grew up working for almost excuslively work and hunt set. Yet to go without vet care would have been been considered then as well as now completly negligent.

The op already stated he let's Snake bites take their course... If a snake bite is not considered an emergency then I'm at a complete loss for what would be.

The op also stated his "working dogs" don't often catch their quarry, and while it's Trey that a hunting dog won't catch everytime the way the op stated it was that it's rare for them to catch...

My frou frou inside dog has thus far caught every chipmonk and 1/3 squirrels she has set after and that includes climbing a tree to get to it...

I guess my " froo-foo " Goldens were lucky to have had me .

Please take this question with an innocent curiosity, without any resentment or spitefulness..

But, what would you consider an emergency? Or, what would motivate you to deliver one of your hounds to a veterinarian?

Bwhahahahahahaha! I tell you what, I am going to leave my frou frou dogs outside tonight so as to not deprive them. *snorts*
They would be bashing down that door so fast. They are not deprived, they are well cared for! They sleep inside, on my bed when it is cold. Eat well, get taken to the vet for being off colour, are groomed regularly, have beds and blankets and treats.

But! Yes but! Even though they are so horribly deprived, they still walk 9kms three times a week, one is trained in agility and they are constantly filthy from getting into dirt, stinky things and generally being dogs! Gasp! Yes, they are treated like dogs, just well cared for dogs.

My bitch has caught moles, rats and squirrels. I let her eat what she catches too. She gets washed off before she comes inside, but she is still allowed back inside.

I do not agree with your extreem veiws. I hope the pups do well despite them.

This is all about the money! Are you not in America? Profit is holiest of holy, American Dream, etc. It helps our economy. I voted for Obama. Count your own money and be efficient. This is about the dogs. Most of knowledge some of usu obtained through reading cynological junk literature. Junk literature can be identified easily, because it is product and service oriented. Do our dogs really need Arthramine? Price is $18.99 a jar. Better buy a bunch of chicken parts in Wall Mart, or pick up a fresh road killed deer for feeding your dog and your dog will get all, what is necessary for his health. Chemical dependency and veterinarian dependency is a result of gullible ignorance; we breed unfit dogs, which should be spayed, neutered or euthanized. Breeding for a good health requires natural way of keeping dogs, without excessive veterinary support. My dogs are real dogs, recent imports from countries of origin, where they are being bred and live to a purpose. This is how I money back guarantee health of my puppies at time of selling and guarantee absence of genetical defects. I prefer selling to hunters, because the best home for a hunting dog is home of a hunter. Unfortunately some sheepishly stick with dogmas, creating a breeding ground fo animal rightists. They are coming and they will hit every dog owner.

A broken bone, an eye injury, a rattle snake bite, eating poison, etc. Some chronic diseases caused by a manufactured food, exposure to household chemicals may be needed to be identified. If you keep your dog fed natural foods and well exercised and he is sick and need frequent veterinary help, he is not worthy of breeding. Dogs are not immortal anyway, but a genetically healthy, good working and intelligent dogs deserve good care. How do you know he deserves it? Keep your dog fed natural foods and put him to work, sometimes under strenuous conditions, and you will know. This is how most of old glorious breeds had been developed. Now, they degenerate, because they are treated like big toy breeds