Post about Ojeriza

CharlieDog

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#1
Retrieverman's Weblog

Just wondering what some of the fila people on here think about this...

If everyone were up to Renee and Beep's standard of care and socialization, I'd say this man is standing on thin ice... But unfortunately, not everyone is..
 
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#3
Another case of someone who knows nothing talking out of his ass. I tried to post but the computer locked up.

Narrow minded morons like him would have us all having a choice of retrievers, or retrievers. :rolleyes: Thanks, but no thanks. I'd rather be dogless.
 

Miakoda

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LOL. I love this comment:

"However, in most dog breeds, even those bred for guarding behavior, we are trying to breed away from aggression (except, apparently, in golden retrievers)."

:rofl1:
 
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#6
I don't necessarily agree with him, but how DO you justify breeding for that kind of drive in a modern environment?


ETA - I have nothing against guardian breeds, but everyone elsewhere is so quit to point out that ojeriza is NOT guardiness- it's aggression towards ANY stranger, ALWAYS. It's not the directed, controlled aggression of a working GSD or malinois patrol dog- it's the default setting. How the heck is that safe?
 

Buddy'sParents

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#7
Don't bother replying, Renee. I posted a response and it got denied and I was even nice about it! Didn't let me inner fila out at all.... well, a little, but not very much. ;)

I don't necessarily agree with him, but how DO you justify breeding for that kind of drive in a modern environment?


ETA - I have nothing against guardian breeds, but everyone elsewhere is so quit to point out that ojeriza is NOT guardiness- it's aggression towards ANY stranger, ALWAYS. It's not the directed, controlled aggression of a working GSD or malinois patrol dog- it's the default setting. How the heck is that safe?
How do you justify the breeder of GSD's whose hips are bad they nearly touch the ground? How do you justify the breeding of animals that have trouble breething?

Ojeriza does NOT equal aggression. My dog is NOT aggressive. I would not tolerate aggression in my home and have put down a dog for aggression. Ojeriza is distrust of strangers. Aggression in my opinion is attacking, vicious, behavior.

Filas are expected to know the difference between what a real threat is and is not. If a fila owner says their dog is aggressive, then I do not believe that they have a fila with true temperament.

I always use the example of last May... there were four strangers walking around Bella's house while she roamed free. An aggressive dog would not allow that. A dog that is well socialized and trained respectively would. Filas were bred to HOLD... that is where Fila comes from.. the word filar, which means to hold.

That nincompoop on that blog does not know what he is talking about and I said the same thing on his blog... if you have not spoken with people who have filas and have never been around them, then no one is in a worthy enough place to pass ANY judgment on why the dogs are bred and why people have them.
 
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#8
Ojeriza - correct ojeriza is NOT aggression :rolleyes:

Kharma functions beautifully in the modern world, and she allows me to live and move about in the modern world with nearly complete freedom as nothing else can. And remember, I've had GSDs since I was 11 or 12 years old and loved the breed. But now that I've lived with Filas the GSDs can't compare for me. Kharma's reactions are also far more predictable to me, her owner, than a GSD's. She also has better judgment as to how far she needs to go to achieve her ends.

Her ojeriza is far more controlled and directed than a trained GSD or Malinois's. She KNOWS. They know what they're told.
 
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#11
So.... in an article about the "True Fila Temperament"

"The feature that perhaps is at first sight the most apparent in a Fila's temperament is the "ojeriza" to strangers (ojeriza - sharp aversion). On the contrary to other puppies, a Fila Puppy is not inclined to relaxed playing with anyone. He attaches himself quickly to those with whom he lives but is, however, from his earliest youth suspicious of persons he does not know. Suspicion may make him irritated and annoyed and to some extent even make him growl with a certain amount of aggression, but yet without sufficient self-confidence to attack. In the course of his development the aversion against strangers will become more and more apparent. Already as a puppy the Fila will clearly show his displeasure if a stranger would try to touch him. At about the age of one year the Fila would attack any person unknown to him who would try to touch him."
"No matter which instrument is used for the temperament test (rod, broom, towel, chair, etc.) the Fila's reaction is always prompt. spontaneous, and without any sign of insecurity. He throws himself forward and upwards (making the characteristic diagonal ascent, mentioned in the CAFIB-standard) attempting to reach the face or the throat of the aggressor."
Ojeriza
 
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#12
Maybe you've been talking to the wrong people. :rolleyes:

But . . . tell it to those who've crossed the line with Kharma, including some of the local cops and their little K9s. Tell it to the moron who thought I'd be easy prey out walking. Tell it to the prowler who found himself confronted with an angry Fila coming through a broken window after him. Tell it to dude who got a steel bar taken away from him by a seven month old puppy. I might add that she never laid a tooth on him. She disarmed him and as long as he stood still she was quite satisfied.

Too many people - even long time owners - have no concept of how devastatingly intellligent this breed is, or how cognizant and able to adapt they are. I've never encountered any other breed of dog that comes close. I am, though, speaking of working lines, or lines that have a goodly percentage of working lines.
 
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#13
So the fact that your dog did NOT attack and severely injure the prowler, which is defined as correct temperament, is supposed to make me feel better about people breeding for that quality?

I think Kharma sounds like a really awesome dog, and I think that quality of judgement sounds awesome. But you know, I run into people who think that their collies will instinctively protect children, that their BCs will herd sheep usefully without any training and that their lab that's never been outside the city will be a useful duck dog in a day. Dogs are DOGS.
 
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#14
attempting to reach the face or the throat of the aggressor.
Um. DUH.

Someone attempting to touch a dog who clearly does not want to be touched is not the victim of aggression. They're a victim of their own gross stupidity.

Bear in mind the CAFIB info has largely passed through some not-so-exact translations.

GSDs are nice dogs. I've always loved them. But they aren't Filas. Nothing is.
 
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#15
So the fact that your dog did NOT attack and severely injure the prowler, which is defined as correct temperament, is supposed to make me feel better about people breeding for that quality?

I think Kharma sounds like a really awesome dog, and I think that quality of judgement sounds awesome. But you know, I run into people who think that their collies will instinctively protect children, that their BCs will herd sheep usefully without any training and that their lab that's never been outside the city will be a useful duck dog in a day. Dogs are DOGS.
Ah, but the difference is, Kharma's proven herself - numerous times, not only in her temperament but in her herding instincts, hunting abilities and general "fila-ness." And it doesn't matter if you or anyone else is comfortable with her abilities and temperament. I am. I'm the one who matters.

They aren't for everyone. They truly are a breed for a very few, and we don't want just anyone to think they should have one. It takes a certain temperament to share your life with a Fila.
 
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#16
I know translation issues can make breed standards tricky, but it still seems to me like a quality which is notable in the situations you've described by it's absence, not it's presence.
 
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#17
She was 7 months old when she disarmed the 6'5", 380 pound man.

When she was grown and we were accosted out walking she went directly for the man's face and throat. He immediately retreated. She knew she didn't need to pursue it farther.
 
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#18
My question is, honestly, how many can be socialized like Kharma? Can you socialize the heck out of one, and have it ok, if its owner gets sick and is hospitalized for a week? It seems inevitable that someone unknown to the dog would have to touch him at some point (vet?)

In any case, comparing the Fila to a GSD isn't fair. The jobs of a Mastiff and a "Herding/Police" dog are pretty different. Even if they were trackers, it seems the fila has kept much more of its own instinct to protect a territory and to think on its own. A GSD or Malinois, well, if I tell it to grab someone, they'd better do it. Thats usually prey drive.
 
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#19
You're correct. There is no comparison :)

Honestly? I wondered the same thing. It's not so much a matter of "socializing" in the same way we think of socializing other dogs, it's really "schooling" the Fila and giving it an opportunity to learn about the world and how it works. I've been amazed. She understands.

It was really interesting to be able to interact with Bella and see how, even at a young age, she worked it out in her head that it was okay for me to be there and then applied what she learned to the other people who came later. She did differentiate between people. Bella accepted BabyBlue more easily than she did a couple of Nikki's family members.

As far as the vet goes, you start taking the Fila in to visit and get to know the vet and the techs before you need vet care. If your vet isn't willing to do that without charging you, then you need another vet as that one doesn't have the sense necessary to treat a Fila.
 
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#20
You're right, a GSD or Mal isn't the right comparison. A better one might be a Pyr or Anatolian, perhaps? I would still say that those dogs DO require socialization to be ultimately successful- one that bites the vet or has to be lasso'd and chased down and then dragged into a kennel in order for the livestock to be vetted or loaded for sale or whatever- is better than nothing but still a potential liability.
 

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