How many litters?

This is a question I have been meaning to ask for a LONG time, but was reminded by Blackmask's excellent post in another thread.

If you have a stud dog (obviously not a bitch, they can only have limited numbers of litters) and say he is just so awesome that everyone and their friends want to breed to him. Obviously he has his faults and weaknesses, but let's say they are very minor, and he is just an all around excellent dog.

How many litters would you limit him to? If he sires too many, he will have a huge impact on the breed and change it for the better or for worse - maybe both. I, personally, do not think any dog should have that kind of impact. It seems extreme to me. Although if you have a different opinion feel free to discuss, I'd love to hear it!




Also, we are assuming you are an ethical breeder and won't breed to just any bitch, only high-quality ones.

I would limit him to siring only litters that I would want a puppy back from. I really don't see why a male should be bred more times than a female, so if one of mine sired 3 nice litters in his lifetime, I'd say that's plenty. I've already turned down 2 people wanting stud service on Priest, because I don't know if I plan on breeding him at all, let alone offering him at public stud.

I dont plan breeding my dog so 1 t0 3 will be enough for me...

There are so many variables to this. It would depend on the dog and what he has to offer. It would depend on the bitches that people approach with to send to him. It would depend a LOT on what he produces over time.

I would want to breed a young dog some, and see what he is putting out there with different blood lines. Sometimes a dog has so much to offer that it would be good to use him fairly extensively. Sometimes a dog does not.

Germany limits dogs to 40 bitches a year, and that is quite a lot. So my real answer to this question is, I have no idea, because for me it would depend on too many variables.

I get what you are saying. If you use a stud who looks to be great and everyone breeds to him. What if he is the carrier of some new health issue.....

40 bitches a year is a LOT. I can see breeding to bitches where I don't want a pup back.... I just don't need that many dogs. If my goal is to improve the breed then I would stand my dog to bitches I would WANT a pup back from.

No idea as to number of litters, but I agree genetically that you don't want one stud to have a monopoly on a few generations of a particular breed.

This is a good article on the Founders Effect.

http://www.papillonclub.org/PapillonHealth/Article-Popular-Sire-Syndrome.html

But there is a great ariticle on it and I can't find it (use to have it saved on the old PC)

Lots of good info on Popular Sire Syndrome and/or the Founders Effect that anyone breeding should read.

a good dog at stud can bring in mucho dinero.

Of course campaigning a stud to the point where people WILL pay $2-3K a service requires mucho dinero...sometimes the two things get in the way of other things.

I am not going to put a number on it...varies too much breed to breed and region to region and country to country.

My 2 Goldens sired only 5 litters . Two were repeats . I had lots of requests , but they didn't do enough testing back then .

Honestly 30 litters in a lifetime is about the highest that my brain could concieve being even remotely resonable with an extreemely exceptional sire. Though I have a hard time imagining that even most of the good dogs cover more than a dozen bitches. Personaly if I had a dog up for stud I wouldn't expect to keep a pup from every litter, but I would only allow my stud to be used in breedings that I would do myself if I had the means to.

I Must add that the pick of the litter in each of my cases were a must , rather than Stud fee,

Well, are we talking toys or giants? There's a big difference between repeatedly using the same toy-bree dstud who produces maybe 2 pups in a litter versus say, a dalmatian sire who's smallest litter is 8!

Thanks for the link, Ado, and thank you everyone for your very thoughtful responses.

I was thinking of large sized dogs, so 4-8 pups per litter.

The requirements for a dog that I own to be used at public stud are as follows:

Finished AKC Ch.
Titled in performance events
Has herding instinct and drive for herding (if not titled in herding) Keep in mind I live 2.5 hrs from the nearest herding instructor and I will not send my dogs out to a trianer/handler
Good temperament, proper for the breed w/ no dog aggression or reactivity
Fully health tested and cleared with a fully health tested pedigree

If all of this was met, I would consider using the dog at public stud. Any bitches he was bred to must pass all health tests and preferably be titled in conformation/performance. I would also like to evaluate the bitch's temperament. (This is a pet peeve of mine in my breed) Of course it's a no-brainer that I trust the owner to make good decisions and sell puppies on s/n contracts etc. I would not necessarily breed for a puppy back. If I think the dog is good enough to offer at public stud, then I would feel he has something that the breed, as a whole, can benefit from. If bred to a very nice bitch, or a line I might like to bring into my pedigrees, I may ask for a puppy back.

Also, keep in mind that my breed's gene pool is pretty small. If a stud is used 30 times, thats pretty much a monopoly on a whole generation. I would stud him out sparingly, and I would say no more than 15 litters throughout his lifetime. That is the high end though, realistically, it would probably be much lower.
I don't think its unreasonable (although probably unnecessary) that in some of the larger breeds some dogs have sire 30 litters or more.

Maybe I'm wrong here but I didn't think litter size was determined by the stud. After all a stud has millions of sperm, its the female who determines how large a litter is by how many eggs she releases.

^^ You are correct Gypsy.

I would say around 15 to 20 litters during his lifetime would be enough. If he was collected it would depend on how many straws that we ended up with. Because first and formost with collection, I want access to them BEFORE anyone else does.

That being said, I would be happy with 3 litters sired by Ivan.

Yes, it's controlled by the bitches, but some dogs seem to consistantly produce larger litters than other, even in the same breed. There's a big difference, regardless, than a chihuahua siring 30 litters with two pups in each litter and a greyhound siring that same number with 9-11 puppies in each litter.

To me it's how many of your pups you want out there to keep track of !!!! Responsible breeding goes both ways .

It is my understanding that the stud can have an influence on the number of pups, especially studs that are not used heavily. But I would have to go look that up again to make sure that is correct.

I know it's normal to use a hot stud dog dozens of times, but I have to say that I could never wrap my head around 30 breedings from the same dog.