Hi From Joel Silverman from ANIMAL PLANET'S "GOOD DOG U"

Dogs Trained for Movies and Commercials

With all due respect, you may call it flawed if you like, but I, along with almost every trainer that trains animals for movies, TV shows, and commercials here in So. Cal. use it exactly like I did and we do with marine mammals. But then again, I only use a clicker for dog training about 5% of the time, if that.

not trying to be mean or anything... but you are on a dog forum. we discuss dog training. If you use clicker training for dogs very infrequently, then perhaps you should not be so quick to correct those who are professional dog trainers and use that method daily. If you want to discuss the differences that's fine... but IMO your post was a correction.

I didn't mean to come off rude and honestly, most of us who use clickers for dog training use them for a very small % of the time. It's when a clicker is used for an extended period of time (past behavior/cue understanding) that problems occur.

My point was that it's difficult to compare Zoo training to dog training with respect to the use of a reward marker.

I have to add that I am absolutely clear and current on the science behind the use of reward markers in dog training and I don't know of one person who would mark and NOT follow with a reward.

I'm also not one to use with leash corrections (choke chain) or oposition reflex in training because I really love the shaping aspect and less aversive nature of reward marker training.

If you're referring to self taught marker trainers or those who are not doing it based on the research then I can't argue with you because that's not where I'm coming from.

I have seen and used reward markers as a different kind of communication when training necessary handling behaviors to zoo animals but that is also due to the fact that the marker is often never faded.


My experience is not with animals trained for human entertainment but rather to reduce captivity stress when exposure is necessary.

umm I have trained animals for movies and TV too... I know people who do it for a living (just gave a dog that came back to people who thats all they do) and they don't keep using the clicker. And dont' click if they dont' intend to reward.

IMO you are going about it a bit backwards with the breeding. In stead of trying to catagorize breeders on where they advertise and whether they show, how about catagorizing them on their breeding habbits.

For example if 'X' breeder offered full health and temperament guarantees, had health tested and titled (not conf showing) with a s/n contract and a return policy but they advertise every now and then in the paper (you can do some great education to people who call from adds in the paper.. see threads on that) they are bad?

If 'Y' breeder never advertises in the paper, shows a few dogs in conformation only, does minimal health tests, doesn't do any kind of work or other training with the dog, offers only a 3 year guarantee and doesn't seem to care about follow up, they are ok?

If a breeder demands the return of any unwanted dog they bred, then what does it matter what are in shelters? their dogs never end up there then how does that affect the problem?

Yes educating people that pets are for life and are not disposable is great. Spay and neuter is good too, but people should also be responsible for their dogs. If you can't keep your dog on your own property then maybe you shouldnt' get one.

**raises hand :yikes:

...but it was a very specific application on an advanced dog and he learned that the reward came on the second click.

Great breeding idea

That breeding idea is great!!! I don't think there is any one solution to this. But there are many parts of that that I like.

Also pxpaeanx -

I have been using a clicker off and on for 30 years with dogs. Whether you think I know or don't know what I am doing is no big deal.

Here is why I use the clicker so infrequently. I only use it if I am training a behavior like an "eyecover" where I want to bridge a dog at a specific time.

If you are talking about flaws, clicker training with dogs has many, and that is why I, along with many other Hollywood animal trainers use it so infrequently. I would really ask you to not make the mistake of thinking that just because someone does not use a style as much as you do that they do not know what they are talking about.

Who, what, were, how, .....do tell.

I've seen circumstances too but the value of teaching that the reward comes on the second click kind of changes what the reward marker is by nature.

What would the first click mean unless your using +R and just feel like using the first click as a "good", which lets face it, could be just said rather than clicked. Unless I'm completely misunderstanding.....WHICH IS ENTIRELY POSSIBLE

Glad this discussion isn't in the "101" thread! :lol-sign:

If this was for me, let's not confuse style with science. I completely agree that many different training styles are not only valuable but necessary, what I was trying to do is stick to the actual science rather than personal styles of training.

While I use a clicker with many, many different kinds of training and rehab. situations, there are absolutely some where I don't think that they are either necessary or viable.

I'd love to discuss the flaws in training SPECIFIC behaviors using a reward marker. I think that you'd find that we'd agree on some things.

Thanks for letting us know where you stand.

I don't know of one person that would CONSISTENTLY reward on the first click. You totally become predictable. The advanced trainers understand that you need to be consistently inconsistent. I reward on the 1st, 2nd , 3rd.. keep it totally unpredictable. It is also a fact that when you bridge and not reward, and ask for the behavior again, it actually increases the quality of the behavior. This is a classic marine mammal philosophy that is used with dogs.

I do enjoy chatting with you about this.. you obviously have a lot of experience with the clicker training. Tell me, have you noticed that you see clicker training a lot in agility training too? That is an example of what I was trying to say. You can see how the clicker increases the animal's attitude and drive.

Then what exactly do you think a reward marker is????? It's completely meant to be predictable, that's the very nature of a reward marker!!

Consistently inconsistent does not include diluting what the marker means.....that's why we don't mark every time!!

Might I suggest a change of venue to the Traning Forum? Thanks.

agreed!

Bingo

You got the difference... Bingo!!!!!!!!!

You can call it a marker or whatever you want. It is a sound. The sound was the communication that the animal did the behavior correctly. NOTHING ELSE. When you consistently reward the animal each time you bridge, you are living in the 1970's. That is what we did back then and that is exactly why we had the aggression problems with the killer whales we had in the early eighties. I know .. I was there...

You can do it anyway you want, but the clicker is a communication to the animal that what he did is correct. What you follow the sound with is your decision. This is why it works so well with the agility trainers. They don't follow the clicker with food each time. Look at the attitude of the dogs. They get it.

if you want people to think you know what your talking about, then don't back out of an argument by saying that you don't use it very often. Bc that is SAYING you don't know what your talking about. If you believe something than stick up for it.

I am not a trainer, I am not giving training advice. In no discussion with you have I said I disagree with how you train. What I said was if you don't use it, then don't correct people who do use it. If it's not a method you train with, then you shouldn't correct how those who do use it are using it.

First, no BINGO moment for me here...

I have opened up another discussion on reward markers in the training section if you want to clear up your confusion on what a reward marker really is.

Back to the member introduction intent of this thread....

Off the training subject I am bit (very) concerned on your views on mandatory s/n and banning breeding of Pits in certain areas.

Care to elaborate what you mean exactly?

Pits

Go back to the previous posts. It's there, but go back to the first one so you can see how it started.