Tug of War?

So I have a question.. my breeder told me NOT to play tug of war with Kyrie(my Newfoundland) because if I do she will more likely bite and attack my legs. So far I haven't played it with her, but I was wondering if this is true?

I mean, I play tug of war with Regis ALL the time and I never have biting issues with him. However, the breeder told me not to(not that I signed to it or anything), so I haven't. But I'm just curious if it as serious as she says it is?

As long as you have rules about the game and stick to them, I don't see why it would be a problem other than she is still young and could get injured if the game is too rough. Gentle tug would be fine in my mind.

I play tug all the time with Pit and always have. We scream, growl, thrash around manically, but if I give him a gentle "gimme", he lets go immediately and the game is over. I've never had a biting problem.

I do not play tug of war with a dog once not having a sch. puppy. I only do if I want to build confidence ( ie the puppy always wins..). The reason I do not is that you will let go so as not to hurt the puppys teeth, and the pup thinks they won. I am however a little confused why the breeder said that the pup would bite your hands. The pup is biting the toy- not your hands.. Must be something perticular to corgis.. ( never heard of it though..)
Tug of war builds confidence. Its puppy to puppy if that is needed but also it teaches the dog to work against you. Now- playing tug of war and teaching the word " drop it" - ie you decide when the game is over should be fine. After all- you are still controling the activity.

Exactly.. If you are going to play tug of war, the person is in charge when the game is over.

I've never, ever heard of that before. There is absolutely nothing wrong with tug-of-war as long as you establish some rules to keep it from getting out of control.

Well, I think it definately depends on the dog - with some dogs they get very worked up and cannot really handle the stimulation, and might start biting or other bad behaviors.

The majority of dogs, I think, can definately handle it, but it does requires a bit of training. I teach my dogs first, they are not to grab the toy from my hand unless I cue them to ("take it"). I think this prevents snatching things out of our hands, but at the very least it's good for self control. Then as we are tugging, if I ask the dogs to drop it, they must drop the toy. If, during the game, they mouthe me, accidentally or otherwise, the game is automatically over - I take the toy out of their mouthes and walk away with it. Teeth on skin is never acceptable.... When my dog was learning this, she began to automatically drop the toy and back away from it whenever she accidentally hit my skin, she could definately feel what she'd done.

I am not undercutting your breeder, and you should talk directly with them about this, however:

I play tug with ALL puppies! Most of them love this game, and quickly learn if they return with an object the game is on. I do not take away what the puppy goes to get! I play tug, and then produce another toy to throw. We work on give much later when the return behavior is well ingrained.

I have never had release issues or biting/mouthing issues with any puppy I have encouraged to play tug.

I DO, however, start and stop the game, and toys we tug with also get put away.

I find tug to be a great reward and release for dogs in most aspects of training. I use it a lot with heeling and retrieves.

I can see where she'd get this idea - corgis (and most herders) are very attracted by movement, and tug would only encourage chasing things that move. She might see your pants or shoelaces moving as you walk and think it's a tug game. I think this is a pretty common belief, and although I'm not sure if I believe it or not, as long as you teach tug the way I described, it shouldn't cause a problem.

Oh I hear it lots. I am surprised you heard it from a breeder though. Usually its the uneducated 'know it all' types who tend to perpetuate this myth. Tug is a co operative game, to dogs its not about winning or loosing its about playing with your 'family group'. Its a bonding exercise.

If you watch dogs play tug, they too have rules. If one dog gets over stimulated the other just walks away. It doesn't matter who ends up with it at the end so much as that the dog never initiates the game. Make sure you only play tug by inviting the dog to join you. That stops the pup from thinking they can grab ankles or sleeves and get you to play with them.

It boggles my mind that some people still (not saying the breeder in this case does, but I hear it all the time) think its a dominance ploy on the part of dogs to try to 'win' the item.

Alright, thanks guys. That's sort of what I was thinking. I just never really thought it would encourage bad behavior in the long run as I've always played with Reegie that way..

Well, I was talking about Kyrie- which is a Newfie. And what I got from it wasn't breed specific. She made it as if everydog would react like this. And also she said Kyrie would be more likely to bite and attack my legs, not my hands. So IDK.

LB, the pup she is talking about is a Newf.

Doesn't work that way. What are the most common agility and flyball breeds?

(answer hearding breeds-high drive ones at that)

What is the #1 Reinforcer for both sports?

Tug.

There is no correlation between tugging and chasing things.

I meant that as a theoretical, "this is why people might think that tug leads to biting legs" statement.

I'll edit the original post because people are getting confused.. lol. I'm talking about Kyrie who is a Newfoundland.

Ohhhhhhhhhhh.. Well with big dogs unless the dog needs to really tug ( like for police work etc) no I do not encourage tug of war.
As puppies you let because of the baby teeth- the pup thinks they won- ie I am stronger than you are. That is not something you want a really large dog to think.. I do not tug of war with my borzois, and they are no where near the weight and size of a newfie. But still- Zubin at 98 pounds if he thought he could, could easily take me off my feet.. ( but he doesn't think he can from early training etc..)

Think about it- this is a breed that would gently take someones arms to lead to safety in the water. I think the breeder is telling you this to let you know to encourage this behavior might lead to the dog taking someones arm.. An action that might be misunderstood by someone else as aggression when its not- just a natural instinct so to speak.
Also the sheer power of the dog- as I stated above why..

Why BM? I know a few newfs who tug (lol and not for police work) and many many many many other breeds. NONE (not even the newfs) grab people's arms because of tug.

What does size of dog have to do with it. I have specifically taught terriers (who LOVE to grab, hold, tug and shake on things-its more ingrained that a newf grabbing an arm!) who grab legs and sleeves to tug. This ELIMINATED the annoying behaviour. It gave the dogs an appropriate outlet to play with humans.

If you were to take your dog to any agility of flyball class the instructors will encourage (some more than encourage) you to build tug as a reward in training. With ALLLLL breeds.

I am surprised BM that as a dog trainer you don't already know all this.

I think it's perfectly fine to play tug with a large breed. I always played tug with the large breeds I grew up with. I just made sure I stuck to my guns about the rules of the game. I also don't think that letting them win is a bad thing. I did this with past dogs, and I do this with Raja (though she is only medium sized). I let her win a lot and praise her for it, which makes her very happy and greatly increased her confidence, which was wonderful since her lack of confidence was a problem early on. At the same time, she was taught to let go as soon as I asked it of her. She knows I am in command, whether I let her win or not.

I also gave her a lot of praise when she would tug harder. As she grew to love the game, she became easier to train. Not only is playing tug one of her favorite rewards now, but it also really helped to teach her to bring back the toy I threw. I never saw any sign of this becoming a problem.

I've always tugged with my dogs without any of them turning aggressive and love when they tug in bet.themselves.I am,always,the one stopping the game but I do let them win cos it's a wonderful ego booster for them!.

It sounds like your breeder is sticking to the old myth that teaching a dog to tug will make him "dominent" over you.

I would discuss this with them, find out their reasoning. I like playing tug, though Sawyer doesn't quite know what to do with me...he'll play tug for a long time with another dog though.