European rotties and dobies.

Ok, so I've noticed something about these two breeds. The European style Rottweilers and Dobermans look a bit over sized. Is that normal and acceptable or is "European" just an excuse to breed extra large dogs?

To be honest, I like rotties and dobes to have a somewhat heavy bone structure. But not too big to the point of looking mastiffy. I see a lot of dobies that tend to be very small and dainty in particular, even males. Some males I see look like females to me.

I am so confused because I look at one breeder and they have champion dogs that look overly massive, and then I check out another breeder and they have smaller dogs that are champions also. Huh? Are the standards that loose?

Maybe why I like the heavier dogs is because they seem to have better head pieces. The smaller ones have softer features. I dont know if thats a coincidence or not. Heavier dobies seem to have better chests on them.

I am not familiar with the breed standards, but I plan on reading up on it.

I have included pictures for this thread. First are the rotties. These dogs seem a bit too big to me, but I believe some of them are even champions. How do they look to you?

Adult male.


This guy is only 14 months.


This boy is only 13 months.


This is a female. She looks kinda masculine to me. I dunno. I could be wrong.

Now check out this rottie. Obviously he is not as heavy as the first adult male I posted. His head is smaller, and his body is much less massive looking. This guy looks amazing to me. Do you see the difference? The more I look at this guy, the more I think the first guy looks like a MASTIFF!



Now the dobies...

This guy is a champion I believe. Overly massive?




These two males have head pieces that are a lot bigger than I usually see. Is this normal or over done? Wait... I think the first one might be female. I forget. Darn it.

For some reason, I envision dobies to have much more of a tuck than this boy.

This guy has a body bigger than some Rotties I see. Normal?

the body seems not proportioned i dont know if its normal to them but i dont think it looks good...

Dunno where you're finding those pictures, but I've never seen rotties and dobes like that.

Actually I think all the Rottweilers you posted are nice, ESPECIALLY the bitch.

It is impossible to tell from these photos if these dogs are oversized or not.

The first dog MIGHT be considered slightly "overdone". You can have TOO much bone, and TOO much head. The Rottweiler should be powerful with heavy bone without being cumbersome or losing athleticism.

Dog in Europe, in particular Germany and other countries where there are strict regulations regarding breeding tend to NOT be oversized. No dog in Germany can be bred before completing the Ztpr test, where the dog is evaluated as to breed type, MEASURED, and the temperament is evaluated. This is the most basic breed test, almost ALL dogs earn at least a SCH1 or IPO1 before breeding.

I will not comment on the Doberman Pinscher as I am not familiar enough with that breed, however, in my limited experience there is a much larger divergence of type between the Dobes in the US and the Dobes in Europe.

It might be better nettiquette to post links to the pictures instead of the actual photos.

JMO as always.

This dog is Multi V-1 ARV/AKC Champion Jeneck's Sam BH,SchH3,IPO3,AD,Korung,ABST, CGC

I am not sure if Sam is still living, if so he is an old dog by now. He was a VERY beautiful dog in his day, with a lovely head piece, and an OUTSTANDING working dog. He and his owner/trainer Amanda competed internationally, represented the US on the IFR team of working dogs. Sam was a magnificent specimen of the breed both on and off the working field, with flawless temperament and character.

Amanda kept him in the utmost physical condition while she was working and showing him. Sam produced many very nice progeny during his breeding lifetime as well.

The way I've come to understand both breeds is that the American lines have become the lighter, more refined versions and the Euro ones are still holding closer to what the breeds used to look like before the "repackaging for show rings" craze began.

Not generally so for Rotties. There does seem to be a recent trend for SOME lines of european Rottweilers to be overdone, sometimes in bone, sometimes in head.

However, most of the time the type and structure of the good dogs is quite similar.

I do see some obvious structural differences since the outlawing of docking in the late 90s. Some of the tailed dogs have much more fall of croup, and tend to have more turn of stifle. I expect these differences will only intensify over the years as long as we keep one step ahead of those who want to outlaw docking here in the US.

Eh, that depends on who you talk to. Basically what you got is two different interpretations of the breed standard going on across the seas. (though those Rotties look nice to my unexperienced eye)

At the risk of a broad, sweeping generalization you'll generally find European style dogs to be heavier set than American/Canadian dogs.

Also, in many breeds there is a striking difference between dogs from mainland European lines and then English lines. Boxers come to mind specifically. Breed type there varies a LOT. (Danes are another one.... as are dobes)

Here's a fun linky- http://www.boxerunderground.com/bu2000/abc2002/boxer_type.htm

http://www.worldwideboxer.com/PAGE2.html

Then depending on where you live, everyone argues about which breed type is best and everyone has their own opinions on it.

With dobes... yes, many of the standards in the European countries have been changed to allow for larger specimens.

Keep in mind that a Doberman is a medium sized breed - they aren't supposed to be big honkin' dogs. The word that comes to mind when I see many European dogs is "coarseness" - dobes should look powerful, but not bulldozer-powerful (theirs is a beauty of a BMW, not a Cadillac Escalade). Overly massive bodies, heavy heads, short thick necks, chests so big they seem to just get in the way... not my idea of a good Doberman, not my idea of a good working dog.

Bigger/thicker isn't always better - look at working Malinois - they're smaller and lighter than Dobermans, and yet they don't seem to have a problem excelling in bitework.

IMO, the European dobes of today look nothing like the "dobes of old". American dogs (IMO of course) fit the original look a bit closer. If you look at old photos of Dobermans, both in the US and Europe, they're smaller, lighter in bone, not so massive.

When I get back from work, I'll try to post some photos of German imports, from when the Dobe first came to the US - you'll see that they are vastly different than the current European dogs.

Yeah, Sizzle. I'm on a forum with a bunch of Europeans as well as Americans and you do get to see all the breed types (and hear everyone's opinions of them)

The Americans say the Euro dogs have too much bone and are too unrefined.

The Europeans say the American dogs are too thin and showy.

And of course the British say their dogs are of course the perfect balance somewhere in between.

And the dane people will argue this until the cows come home. Sorry, poking fun at my friends. It's interesting. I find I like the European look on some breeds and others not so much. Anyways, here's a better pic of a Euro boxer

http://www.delcolledellinfinito.it/zg_tito.htm

There's a line between working and show type dogs too, even in Europe. The working line Rottie isn't a real big dog. At the club I was training at, we had 2. One was about 100lbs, and the other was 85lbs. Both intact males and from German working lines. The smaller one was a street patrol dog for a police agency. Both are very hard dogs with high defensive drives, not much in the prey drive department, but that's typical of a Rottie. Good for home defense, not much for running down someone from a distance.

I always thought the American line Rotties were the ones that were over sized, but I don't have anything to back that up.

Those dobes :yikes: they look very overweight to me...

I knew I could spot a good dog when I see him! Haha. He is just gorgeous. I've never seen a rottie that well muscled either.

Ok, off to find the links to the other dogs I posted...

ROTTWEILER LINKS:

The first rottie I posted looks even more massive in the other pics shown on his breeders website. His breeder also produces dobermans.

http://www.dicamo-dogs.com/rotweiler/muzjaci_grof_gallery.htm

Link to the 14 month old I posted.

http://www.donnerbergrottweilers.com/donnerbergs-merlin-von-ixoye.html


DOBERMAN LINKS:

Here is a pretty long list of doberman champions. Some of them look gigantic to me, while others look pretty normal.

http://www.gem-givveeon.com/english/champions/champions.htm

Link to the huge red dobie I posted. He IS a champion.

http://www.brittonfarmsdobermans.com/

110 pound champion doberman:yikes:...

http://www.thunderstormdobermans.com/Chiefspage.html

It makes complete sense to me that the working dogs are much smaller than the show dogs. Although I come across pretty big and mastiffy looking Rotties, it seems that dobermans have even more of a "loose" standard than rottweilers.

I mean, look at the 110 pound champion dobie. I never thought that was even possible. Dobies are allowed to be that large? Thats just shocking.

Its amazing how breeds change so much over time. I wonder what the 2 breeds will look like in 100 years. There will be 200 pound champion dobermans walking around.

If only they did that in the U.S there wouldn't be this massive overpopulation!!

Reggin, do not equate an "International Champion" title with a Championship title from AKC. The requirements for a UCI In'tl CH title are quite loose.

Well, I will disagree - the FCI standard was changed to allow for one quarter of an inch increase in height, was it not? It said nothing in regards to neck, chest, or anything of the light. That is the fancy going towards a trend - same as the fancy in the US goes right now for dogs that are overangulated, with such extreme angles they can barely move, with extremely long necks with not enough musculature, etc. Looking at the original dobermans 100 years ago, the dobermans being bred today in EITHER country don't resemble them very much, either- the breed has changed. The "American" doberman doesn't look like the "dobes of old" either - however, something has to be said for being able to preserve the ability to work, which WAS the function of old, which hasn't been preserved in the American doberman.

While many of those dogs may give the impression of being large, not all of them ARE large - spending time at trials, you can see dogs that may appear large in photos, but in reality are still only 70-80 or so lbs, same as their american counterparts. Big differences do include the size of the forechest and prosternum, the fact that yes, many SHOW dogs are shown overweight (working dogs are not, because they DO have to be worked and need to be kept in working weight - but there are european working dogs and euro show dogs just the same as there are in the US), and the overall coarseness of the dog.

Right now it comes down to preference - I don't think choosing one or the other is right, because there has to be an inbetween and choosing a structurally correct dog that can work is the right thing (of course with proper temperament and health testing) - but looking at some of the overangulated, extreme dogs seen in the show ring today, THEY don't look like the show dogs of three decades ago, either. We've taken it to an extreme, which is why the doberman ring is so competitive - it's less about the dogs and more about how much art you put into showing them. We need to get to the moderate, solid dogs and they exist on BOTH sides of the atlantic ocean - nice compact dogs, good toplines, good angulation in the front and rear, pleasant to look at.