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  #31  
Old 10-10-2013, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Toller_08 View Post
I've never seen a study either, and what convinced me to try raw was the fact that I knew many people who did/do feed their dogs raw and their dogs were doing really well, and it was blatantly obvious that something was amiss with Dance's digestion.
If Dance = Kim then this is also exactly why I finally took the plunge after a year of resistance and research. I was lucky enough to have a pragmatic mentor who had been feeding raw for ten years to bounce questions and ideas off, and provide guidance.
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  #32  
Old 10-10-2013, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Shai View Post
I think we can safely disregard the rantings of zealots who ignored what is in front of their eyes when it comes to rationally discussing which type of diet works well. Both the "Dogs are wolves!" folks who seem to think kibble is mined straight from hell and all dogs should eat nothing but freshly killed whole game (or worse, boneless skinless chicken breast) and the "Raw killz!" folks who seem to think all food should be formulated in a petri dish and irradiated. There is a wide range of rational middle ground -- criticizing the extremes is valid, but it just highlights the ridiculous and doesn't really advance anyone's knowledge of beneficial solutions and practical tradeoffs.
Maybe because I'd seen it twice recently but I don't see it as just the extremists? This case was a dog that had been switched to raw three weeks prior and went from healthy to having red, swollen and hairless spots. Apparently suggesting taking the dog to the vet and getting bloodwork and in the mean time putting the dog back on food it did well on prior was stupid because I obviously suck as a dog owner because I feed kibble sometimes.
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  #33  
Old 10-10-2013, 12:00 PM
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If your dog does terrible on a food (raw, high quality kibble, poor quality kibble, etc), I would never want them to stay on it. If my dogs ended up with bloody stools and hot spots after switching to raw, they would've gone back to kibble.

I think high quality kibble is great- it's so convenient and there are so many brands in many price ranges that can appeal to so many people. I feed it occasionally and feel no guilt whatsoever when I give it to my dogs.

I think ingredients are very important. To me, high quality ingredients speak volumes. For instance:

Quote:
Boneless chicken*, chicken meal, chicken liver*, whole herring*, boneless turkey*, turkey meal, turkey liver*, whole eggs*, boneless walleye*, whole salmon*, chicken heart*, chicken cartilage*, herring meal, salmon meal, chicken liver oil, red lentils, green peas, green lentils, sun-cured alfalfa, yams*, pea fiber, chickpeas, pumpkin*, butternut squash*, spinach greens*, carrots*, Red Delicious apples*, Bartlett pears*, cranberries*, blueberries*, kelp, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, Enterococcus faecium.
I don't think foods like these can be good for dogs long term, no matter how "good" the dog looks on the outside:

Quote:
Ingredients: Ground yellow corn, meat and bone meal, soybean meal, poultry by-product meal, animal fat (preserved with BHA and citric acid), corn gluten meal, natural flavor, brewers rice, salt, potassium chloride, color added (titanium dioxide, yellow #5, yellow #6, red #40, blue #2), choline chloride, zinc sulfate, vitamin E supplement, ferrous sulfate, zinc oxide, niacin, copper sulfate, vitamin A supplement, biotin, manganous oxide, calcium pantothenate, vitamin B12 supplement, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K activity), riboflavin supplement, sodium selenite, calcium iodate, folic acid, vitamin D3 supplement, cobalt carbonate
I'd use a prescription diet for a VERY short amount of time... but look at the ingredients in Science Diet Joint RX food:

Quote:
Whole Grain Corn, Chicken By-Product Meal, Flaxseed, Soybean Mill Run, Brewers Rice, Soybean Meal, Pork Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Chicken Liver Flavor, Powdered Cellulose, Fish Oil, Lactic Acid, Potassium Chloride, L-Lysine, Calcium Carbonate, Choline Chloride, Iodized Salt, DL-Methionine, Vitamin E Supplement, vitamins (L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), L-Threonine, Taurine, Soy Lecithin, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), L-Tryptophan, L-Carnitine, preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid, Chondroitin Sulfate, Phosphoric Acid, Beta-Carotene, Rosemary Extract.
Yes, dogs are opportunistic carnivores, but I don't think that these foods are good for them as their primary diet. Of course they contain all of the vitamins and minerals that they need according to AFFCO, but common sense and basic knowledge tells me these are terrible foods for dogs.

Dogs can survive on crappy foods, and college students can survive on ramen noodles. I don't think either one is a healthy diet choice.
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  #34  
Old 10-10-2013, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Shai View Post
I guess to me it seems odd to ask for proof that feeding real food is better...it would make more sense to require proof that feeding a wholly manufactured prepared diet is better.
The problem with this is, who is going to fund those studies? And when the dog food company-funded studies are released, are hard-core raw feeders going to believe or disbelieve them, do you think?

No neutral party cares enough to study this stuff, and anyway it's human nature to discount studies that disagree with what you already believe and accept studies that agree with what you already believe (which I saw everywhere the grain digestibility study was discussed.) I would dearly like to see well designed, executed, and analyzed studies about a variety of contentious topics but on the other hand I don't think they would change many people's minds.


And anyway, what I would prefer to see, rather than any studies attempting to prove any diet is "better," is studies that attempt to prove whether any particular diet is harmful. My personal suspicion is that most dogs can thrive on a wide variety of diets, and that while any particular diet may be superior for an individual dog, that there isn't a blanket "better" diet for dogs as a species. I also suspect that for most dogs, even if one diet was "superior" to another, the degree of benefit is probably be negligible most of the time. I think other factors like the amount of exercise a dog gets and staying at a healthy weight have more of an impact than what the exact diet is for most dogs.
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  #35  
Old 10-10-2013, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Laurelin View Post
Maybe because I'd seen it twice recently but I don't see it as just the extremists? This case was a dog that had been switched to raw three weeks prior and went from healthy to having red, swollen and hairless spots. Apparently suggesting taking the dog to the vet and getting bloodwork and in the mean time putting the dog back on food it did well on prior was stupid because I obviously suck as a dog owner because I feed kibble sometimes.
The dogs were just detoxing, don't you know?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Jessie~ View Post
I don't think foods like these can be good for dogs long term, no matter how "good" the dog looks on the outside:
See, this kind of grates on me because you can say it about any diet. I could say "sure, your dog looks good on the outside but that raw diet is nutritionally incomplete and he probably isn't actually healthy." Why is looking good on the outside a good measure of the benefit of a raw diet, but discounted for kibble? That makes no sense to me.

Squash looks good on the outside when he's on raw and Pip looks good on the outside when he eats kibble, and Maisy looks good pretty much no matter what she eats. Why is Squash more legitimately healthy because he's eating raw? I'm not trying to be snotty, I actually completely cannot wrap my head around the logic of it.
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  #36  
Old 10-10-2013, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by ~Jessie~ View Post

I think ingredients are very important. To me, high quality ingredients speak volumes. For instance:

Boneless chicken*, chicken meal, chicken liver*, whole herring*, boneless turkey*, turkey meal, turkey liver*, whole eggs*, boneless walleye*, whole salmon*, chicken heart*, chicken cartilage*, herring meal, salmon meal, chicken liver oil, red lentils, green peas, green lentils, sun-cured alfalfa, yams*, pea fiber, chickpeas, pumpkin*, butternut squash*, spinach greens*, carrots*, Red Delicious apples*, Bartlett pears*, cranberries*, blueberries*, kelp, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, Enterococcus faecium.
Yes, these ingredients look very good. But there is a LOT more to a food than ingredients.

And Jessie, I don't want you to think I'm arguing with just you, lol just using your post as a reference. But this food, with these awesome "sexy" ingredients is made by Champion Pet Foods. Did you know that they actually use lakefish by-products? (which doesn't really bother me, but they're not exactly forthcoming about it). Their dry legumes have somewhere around 25% protein or more and the fresh meat is about 90% water.

Here is info about the by products:
http://www.freshwaterfish.com/system...ter%202011.pdf

Quote:
It appears as though the Freshwater Fish Company used to have their "waste" (minced fish by-products) trucked to a rendering facility. Now they and Champion have an agreement that Champion gets all of it for a large yearly sum.

It appears that Champion has somehow gotten around using the term "by-products" (maybe because the fish is fresh?).

I thought their meat was fit for human consumption, so went to the site to reread. Sure enough, here is what they say:

"All ORIJEN fresh meats (chicken, fish, turkey, eggs) are of table quality and passed fit for human consumption before arriving at Champion.

Our chicken, fish and turkey meals are produced exclusively from animals that are certified as fit for human consumption by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA)."

So does that strictly mean they were fit for human consumption "before" they arrived, but have since been separated from the other parts and are now a by-product? It says nothing about if they are "when" they arrive.

I mean, there usually isn't going to be a problem giving by-products to dogs, I just find it odd that Champion is most likely doing this and has gotten around it with different terminology. Freshwater Fish Company does say it is "by-product".
Quote:
Freshwater Fish is always looking to expand its market
reach and to strengthen existing markets – even non-human
ones!
We recently signed an exclusive arrangement with Albertabased Champion Petfoods, whereby we sell all minced
by-products to them and they in turn buy all the product
we have to offer.
We began working with Champion in 2005 when we
sent them samples of minced by-products for testing after
it was extracted from fish during the filleting process. Prior
to sending the product to Alberta, we had been paying to
have the waste trucked to a rendering facility in Winnipeg.
After the samples were tested by Champion, a product was
developed that met their high quality specifications.
This business brings in several hundred thousand dollars
in revenue for a product that previously cost us money to
dispose of – and we’re thrilled to be building on a relationship
that dates back more than five years.
On October 28 we welcomed Champion Petfoods team members Jeff Johnston (Nutrition, Research and Product
Development Manager) and Andre Minnaar (Quality
Assurance Manager) into the plant so they could conduct
their quality assurance audit and plant tour.
While visiting our facility, Jeff relayed the following
message: “At Champion Petfoods we have been extremely
pleased with the freshness and quality of the raw material we
receive from Freshwater Fish. We are proud to be affiliated
with one of the best sources of raw freshwater fish protein
in the world. Freshwater Fish is one of our key raw material
supply partners and the growth and reputation of our
products is directly related to our high quality raw materials.
Thank you for sustainably harvesting and processing such a
high quality freshwater fish product.”
We are so proud of this success story and look forward to
working more with Champion Petfoods in the future!
http://www.freshwaterfish.com/system...ter%202011.pdf

I think most know about the Australian recall that killed cats a while back, most brushed it off. But if you google you will see that the Australian govt. released documents that Champion knew about the irradiation at least 1 year before the recall. The foods have tested positive for BHA/BTA at Michigan State, and Champion confirmed the findings. However, this WAS about 5 years ago. Acana had an importation ban at least once for salmonella (but this is not something I think is a huge deal personally, but worth noting). Documents produced after the Australian recall named Griffin Industries in Alabama as the source of Chicken Meal (not Canadian, as they state).
http://www.wherearethepetfoodchampio...en_Recall.html


I've read a lot of iffy things about them. But I still love the way my dog does on Acana, and I feel like there's a lot of companies doing shady things. I just don't like the portrayal of Champion foods as the be-all-end-all of dog foods and used to compare ingredients. Because a lot more goes into a food than a simple ingredient list, ya know? And I used to be a "Champion is THE BEST" person!! lol. And hell, I still feed Acana sometimes. I just think if you research enough, you'll see that alot of these 'holistic' higher end kibble companies are not all their cracked up to be.
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  #37  
Old 10-10-2013, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by sassafras View Post
The dogs were just detoxing, don't you know?



See, this kind of grates on me because you can say it about any diet. I could say "sure, your dog looks good on the outside but that raw diet is nutritionally incomplete and he probably isn't actually healthy." Why is looking good on the outside a good measure of the benefit of a raw diet, but discounted for kibble? That makes no sense to me.

Squash looks good on the outside when he's on raw and Pip looks good on the outside when he eats kibble, and Maisy looks good pretty much no matter what she eats. Why is Squash more legitimately healthy because he's eating raw? I'm not trying to be snotty, I actually completely cannot wrap my head around the logic of it.
Of course you can say it about any diet. My dogs looked great and shiny on high quality kibble, and I've tried at least 10 different types over the past 8 years. I will stand up for high quality kibble any day.

The changes since they've been on raw have been noticeable too, mainly with Chloe's weight. She was on kibble until she was about 5 years old, and she was always SO skinny. We'd adjust her feedings and she would just poop more.

Every smelly, greasy dog I've encountered has been fed crappy food. If crappy food is powering your body, it only makes sense that you'd see it on the outside.

There is the odd dog who looks fine on crappy kibbles, but I think the majority don't.
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  #38  
Old 10-10-2013, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by JacksonsMom View Post
Yes, these ingredients look very good. But there is a LOT more to a food than ingredients.

And Jessie, I don't want you to think I'm arguing with just you, lol just using your post as a reference. But this food, with these awesome "sexy" ingredients is made by Champion Pet Foods. Did you know that they actually use lakefish by-products? (which doesn't really bother me, but they're not exactly forthcoming about it). Their dry legumes have somewhere around 25% protein or more and the fresh meat is about 90% water.
Honestly, I haven't been following kibble companies lately. It IS scary trusting your dog's entire diet with one company, especially when companies aren't honest and you have no way of knowing for sure.

I fed Orijen and Acana 4 years ago and my dogs did well on both of them. I've also rotated at that same time with some other brands like Nature's Variety. I don't think Orijen is the god of kibbles- it was just the first kibble that came to mind.

Anyway, high quality kibbles are better than low quality kibbles. I think there's a huge difference between them.
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  #39  
Old 10-10-2013, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Laurelin View Post
Maybe because I'd seen it twice recently but I don't see it as just the extremists? This case was a dog that had been switched to raw three weeks prior and went from healthy to having red, swollen and hairless spots. Apparently suggesting taking the dog to the vet and getting bloodwork and in the mean time putting the dog back on food it did well on prior was stupid because I obviously suck as a dog owner because I feed kibble sometimes.
See I would consider anyone who saw those symptoms and said "carry on anyway!" to be an extremist because the advice you describe is madness, unless I'm missing some extenuating circumstance.
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  #40  
Old 10-10-2013, 12:21 PM
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See I would consider anyone who saw those symptoms and said "carry on anyway!" to be an extremist because the advice you describe is madness, unless I'm missing some extenuating circumstance.
Yeah, that's terrible to make a dog suffer because you want them to be on a raw diet. I couldn't imagine giving someone advice to continue on even though their dog is obviously not doing well on raw.
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