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  #31  
Old 04-05-2013, 08:40 PM
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Judge has a beautiful out on a sleeve or toy, a bit possessive but a nice out.

That said.....
When we had the home invasion and he got a live bite, he was choked off, for one, I couldn't have remembered how to out him if I had wanted too(adrenaline, fear etc.) for 2...he just wasn't letting go. He did let loose to regrip but he re gripped and held and shook. He has been trained to bite and hold, that is exactly what he did. A real life scenario with adrenaline and fear etc. is a whole different ball of wax than playing a sport on a sport field with toys. IMHO- just because a dog has to be choked off a bite in a certain scenario doesn't make them unsafe. Let me tell you, I have a new appreciation for the K9s and their handlers. I will tell you, in the situation me and my dog were in, I did not want him letting go, I imagine it is the same in their situations most of the time.

I've had working dogs redirect on me in certain situations, my own dog included. A little redirect doesn't mean the dog is unsafe or unstable IMHO.

FWIW- In my area, most of the K9s are Dual Purpose and all are VERY stable dogs. Well controlled and some even semi social.
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  #32  
Old 04-05-2013, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
The inference that they have potential for danger with mismanaged handlers is valid, to label a dog that redirects at some point for some reason as unsafe is incorrect and endangering.
In the cases of my being bit they were not in action nor in training it was pure excitement because we were getting ready to go out on a patrol. That is too much drive to bite to be safe in the hands of the average dog owner who lacks the knowledge & vigilance to handle them.
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  #33  
Old 04-05-2013, 11:04 PM
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Haven't read the whole thread yet, but I thought this blog post might be interesting to those interested:

http://caninesinaction.com/2010/06/b...-how-annoying/
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  #34  
Old 04-06-2013, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
I would argue that your definition of safety is vastly opinion based and far to broad.

My dogs have redirected on me and last week in Bitework Sloan got over excited and nipped Denis' stomach when held back, it's something we deal with and move on. To write them off as unstable or unsafe is rather short sighted.

Outside of working dogs I had a schnauzer nail me today at work when grabbed in pursuit of another dog, here we call that impulse control and bite inhibition, we don't really write off dogs with damning labels.
One could also argue that dogs who regularly get so over aroused that they nail their handlers or the guys their handlers are working with are sort of counter productive in real life working situations. I'm not saying all dogs who have ever redirected aren't safe but if it's a regular problem, that seems to me that it would make the dog a huge liability.

The breeding, training and selling of police dogs is a business so it's not unlike any other business. Some come from very reputable sources and some don't. Some have extremely good handlers...and some don't. Some have stellar training...some don't. There are certainly k9s out there that should have never been trained or sold for that kind of work. Or dogs who have a great aptitude for it but had poor, rushed training. That isn't to say k9s on the whole aren't safe, it just depends.
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  #35  
Old 04-06-2013, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleron View Post
One could also argue that dogs who regularly get so over aroused that they nail their handlers or the guys their handlers are working with are sort of counter productive in real life working situations. I'm not saying all dogs who have ever redirected aren't safe but if it's a regular problem, that seems to me that it would make the dog a huge liability.

The breeding, training and selling of police dogs is a business so it's not unlike any other business. Some come from very reputable sources and some don't. Some have extremely good handlers...and some don't. Some have stellar training...some don't. There are certainly k9s out there that should have never been trained or sold for that kind of work. Or dogs who have a great aptitude for it but had poor, rushed training. That isn't to say k9s on the whole aren't safe, it just depends.
I don't really believe dogs stay on the force long term if they are seriously harming police officers, that seems financially counterproductive and would likely be dealt with.

I would be interested to hear the scenario and level of bites being sited in this thread.

Like I said, in the first response to the thread, of course there are unsafe dogs in police and military work, whether due to breeding or management, but over all a dog that is unsafe won't last long in most forces.

Additionally, I haven't seen these TV shows (i don't have cable and haven't sought them out online) but I can imagine they make an effort to show the most extreme cases for ratings and even then I would challenge the average viewer to have any true understanding of not only dog language but extreme dog behaviors.
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  #36  
Old 04-06-2013, 12:26 PM
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Guess it depends on who is holding the leash.

I'd say eyeliner pencils are pretty safe but I almost take my eye out every day trying to use mine
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  #37  
Old 04-06-2013, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Chrome View Post
I've had working dogs redirect on me in certain situations, my own dog included. A little redirect doesn't mean the dog is unsafe or unstable IMHO.

When Harry was a puppy, my friends all called me "Bloody Stumps."
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  #38  
Old 04-06-2013, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianneIsabel View Post
I don't really believe dogs stay on the force long term if they are seriously harming police officers, that seems financially counterproductive and would likely be dealt with.

I would be interested to hear the scenario and level of bites being sited in this thread.

Like I said, in the first response to the thread, of course there are unsafe dogs in police and military work, whether due to breeding or management, but over all a dog that is unsafe won't last long in most forces.

Additionally, I haven't seen these TV shows (i don't have cable and haven't sought them out online) but I can imagine they make an effort to show the most extreme cases for ratings and even then I would challenge the average viewer to have any true understanding of not only dog language but extreme dog behaviors.
The link that Aleron posted earlier tells of several serious bite incidents involving western Washington police dogs:

http://seattletimes.com/html/localne...gbitesxml.html

Obviously, the media is going to make as big a story of it as they can, so highlight the worst of the worst, but it still shows several incidents of serious bites involving police K-9s. And of interest is the fact that the dogs that are involved in these incidents seem to frequently to have it happen more than once.
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  #39  
Old 04-06-2013, 05:50 PM
release the hounds release the hounds is offline
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If one place is having that many problems maybe it is time to re-evaluate where they get their dogs from and who's training them.

Redirects and unprovoked bites are not the norm. At least from my experience, which is more than 5 but less than 10, dogs certified dual purpose in the past 3 years. I bad nothing to do with the narcotics training though.
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  #40  
Old 04-06-2013, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by release the hounds View Post
If one place is having that many problems maybe it is time to re-evaluate where they get their dogs from and who's training them.

Redirects and unprovoked bites are not the norm. At least from my experience, which is more than 5 but less than 10, dogs certified dual purpose in the past 3 years. I bad nothing to do with the narcotics training though.
The military breeds & buys, but they do most of their own training.
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