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  #21  
Old 11-24-2012, 03:20 PM
Pops2 Pops2 is offline
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Originally Posted by BlackPuppy View Post
Our breed club just finished up a final version of our Code of Ethics. It's 3 pages long and the breeding section has 19 points. This doesn't mean that all parents are to be perfect, but they should have their health checks and be representative (rated Very Good at least) examples of the breed type and have correct temperament. There are limits on age, and a limit of 4 litters for bitches.

My dog has allergies, so he will not be breed.
i'm going to disagree w/ that thought process, it is too easy to lose a blood line & genetic variation when you do that. which makes it that much easier for one prepotent stud to become a fad that bottlenecks a breed.
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  #22  
Old 11-24-2012, 03:28 PM
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It can be really hard because you have to depend on people to be honest, there is no way to prove if a dog has seizures or not. There are some foreign databases that can be really useful for Tervs and Groens but sadly, very few Mal or Laeken people seem to participate in them. Which might give the idea that epilepsy is not a concern in those varieties and I really wish that were the case. It would make it easier to improve if two of the four varieties didn't have an epilepsy issue. I think it has to do with so many Mals being bred by people who are in the business of breeding and selling working dogs. It looks bad for business to be too upfront about any potential issues. Also, breeders who keep their dogs kenneled may never see seizuring if it did happen.

It wasn't all that long ago that Groen and Terv people weren't all that forthcoming about seizuring either. I remember when I first got involved, the Terv people used to claim it was an issue in Black Dogs but not Tervs. And the Black Dog people would say it was "a Terv problem". I'm glad the hairy crowd has become more open but there still isn't total honesty there either. Looking at the databases, there's very few American dogs listed with epilepsy compared to European dogs. Of course there's fewer dogs here but I personally know quite a lot of dogs who seizure or produced it that aren't listed.

Here's some of the databases:

http://www.belgian-epilepsy.dk/liste.htm

This is probably the biggest database but just a handful of Mals with epilepsy listed, some working and some show. You can search for Mals and pull down the second choice bar for "with epilepsy".

http://baza.belgi.pl/

So my answer is, I wish I had an easy answer for you. Your best bet is to try to find the most honest, upfront and knowledgeable people involved with Mals and see what they are willing to tell you. At least with your own dogs to start with. You can ask on different email lists, FB groups or forums if anyone is willing to talk privately with you about pedigree research regarding epilepsy in working line Mals. Hopefully one day, we will have a genetic marker for epilepsy in all of the Belgians and will be able to make truly accurate breeding choices regarding epilepsy.
Thank you very much, that's more than I've gotten elsewise, I think you're right about too many mal people brushing it off as a nonissue.
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  #23  
Old 11-24-2012, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Pops2 View Post
i'm going to disagree w/ that thought process, it is too easy to lose a blood line & genetic variation when you do that. which makes it that much easier for one prepotent stud to become a fad that bottlenecks a breed.
I'd say too that it depends on the breed and the bitch. Some breeds 1-3 puppies per litter is the norm. Others 10+. It's probably not as necessary with breeds that produce 10+ to have more than four litters. Others, 4-5 puppies produced over the lifetime of the bitch is hardly anything at all when you're trying to pick the best to continue a line.

Then some bitches have a really easy time whelping and everything. Some have a really hard time with it. You don't want to put her health at risk by overbreeding and some girls it isn't an issue.
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  #24  
Old 11-24-2012, 05:40 PM
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I'd say too that it depends on the breed and the bitch. Some breeds 1-3 puppies per litter is the norm. Others 10+. It's probably not as necessary with breeds that produce 10+ to have more than four litters. Others, 4-5 puppies produced over the lifetime of the bitch is hardly anything at all when you're trying to pick the best to continue a line.

Then some bitches have a really easy time whelping and everything. Some have a really hard time with it. You don't want to put her health at risk by overbreeding and some girls it isn't an issue.
shouldn't the breeder know that before they rebreed a bitch? but the COE takes those decisions out of the breeders' hands & puts them at risk of disciplinary action, none of which may actually benefit the breed's health or genetic diversity.
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  #25  
Old 11-24-2012, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Pops2 View Post
shouldn't the breeder know that before they rebreed a bitch? but the COE takes those decisions out of the breeders' hands & puts them at risk of disciplinary action, none of which may actually benefit the breed's health or genetic diversity.
I really think 4 litters is enough. If you haven't produced what you need out of 4 litters, chances are that you aren't going to. Increasing genetic diversity would involve breeding more bitches, not the same bitch over and over.
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  #26  
Old 11-24-2012, 09:04 PM
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I feel like even four litters is excessive... do you still have time to DO stuff with the bitch?
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  #27  
Old 11-24-2012, 09:11 PM
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Many breeds live to an easy 10. It's not like you're waiting a year for pups. Six months total, maybe, that the bitch is out? And even then, early pregnancy you could still do a weekend show or two. Once the pups are more independent, again, easy.

There's plenty of time to still do things.
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  #28  
Old 11-24-2012, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Lyzelle View Post
Many breeds live to an easy 10.
How late are people breeding?
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  #29  
Old 11-24-2012, 09:24 PM
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When it comes to breeding I will not compromise on working ability, appropriate drives, temperament or health. I will however on conformation because I firmly believe that structure is the easiest thing to improve or ruin. The evidence is there with how breeders can and do so drastically change a 'standard' to suit the needs of the show ring and the lastest fad.
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  #30  
Old 11-24-2012, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by SpringerLover View Post
How late are people breeding?
Depends on the breed. 4-6 months out of 10 years isn't that big of a deal. Nor is a total of 2 years for 4 small to medium litters, if the bitch is producing quality pups and having no issues. There's plenty of time to show, work, and whatever else.

People seem to get the idea that dogs are only worth any time as long as they are under 5. Then, yeah, you have NO time to do much of anything. But there's no reason why older dogs who are healthy shouldn't be able to work and show, even if they've had down time for a litter.

2 litters per year for 3 years? Sure. Maybe excessive. 4 litters total in the span of 10-12 years? Not really. Especially if there's only 3-4 pups per litter.
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