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  #41  
Old 11-22-2012, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by elegy View Post
This so much.

And this is the bit they do not (cannot?) understand.
I tried to explain exactly this.
The difference between: “OMG don’t you know prong collars hurt the dog?! How can you call yourself a dog lover if you HURT your dog?!”

Versus: “Hey, have you tried a front clip harness? They work really well on hardcore pullers and there are programs where rescues can get a ton of them for free, like through the No Choke Challenge.” And then post a link.

IDK... seems like a no brainer to me, but what do I know
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  #42  
Old 11-22-2012, 07:08 PM
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Not to turn this into a debate, but I do have issues with the idea of "as long as it works its all good". WHY it works is very important.
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  #43  
Old 11-22-2012, 07:14 PM
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I use what works & doesn't do mental or emotional damage to the dog, example a correction that works on Josefina would make buddy shut down
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  #44  
Old 11-22-2012, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Greenmagick View Post
Not to turn this into a debate, but I do have issues with the idea of "as long as it works its all good". WHY it works is very important.
I agree, but for example, I was teaching a dumbbell retrieve during down time at a dog show, by shaping it with the clicker. This lady came up and was like "you're not breaking that down small enough, you have to click for the tiniest head movements. This behavior takes days to teach the right way, and you're already adding duration to it (having her hold the dumbbell for a few seconds until I clicked and took the dumbbell away). You're going to ruin your dog!"

The thing is, Sadie is not most dogs. She was born shaping- and she picks up new behaviors as quick as lightning. Not to mention I was successful in training that behavior, even if I went faster or asked more of my dog than some would think is appropriate, it worked for my dog because that's how we do things. That's what I mean when I say that some PR trainers are freakazoids. I mean, I was clicker training a behavior, my dog was successful, and we were having fun, and *that* needs to be critiqued? Really? Not cool.
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  #45  
Old 11-22-2012, 07:45 PM
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I joined that group for a bit and left just as quickly.. whoever said "pack of wild dogs" had it right.
It's a giant witch hunt.

I don't understand how the philosophy of being kind and positive while teaching dogs does not equate to the same atitude when teaching human beings.
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  #46  
Old 11-22-2012, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Greenmagick View Post
Not to turn this into a debate, but I do have issues with the idea of "as long as it works its all good". WHY it works is very important.
It matters very much to me too
I can explain to others why it matters to me, I can explain my reasoning, but there comes a point where you have to accept that not everyone cares about the same things. (I know you know that Nicole, just talking in general terms.)
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  #47  
Old 11-22-2012, 09:39 PM
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Oh and forgot to add - to be fair, there is another FB group (that of course the Beyond crowd trolls) that is just as bad as them only from the other side. Same thing, post a video, say how stupid it is to train that way, and go off on the trainer’s looks and weight. Post an article, go off on how stupid the author is. Recruit troops to go flood said article with comments. Ditto the pics and videos. *sigh*

Time to go hug the dogs
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  #48  
Old 11-23-2012, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fran101 View Post
I joined that group for a bit and left just as quickly.. whoever said "pack of wild dogs" had it right.
It's a giant witch hunt.

I don't understand how the philosophy of being kind and positive while teaching dogs does not equate to the same atitude when teaching human beings.
I don't go on any other forums or groups....only Chaz. But I do understand that. I lose patience with humans way quicker than I do with dogs. Humans are exasperating. They do understand more from each other. They do have more cognitive sophistication than dogs do. So, when humans won't even examine or listen at all to anything, it's like.... When humans are being stubborn and rebellious they're being just that. When dogs appear to be those things, they aren't because they can't be expected to run off the same engine that humans run off of as....different values altogether, amoral etc.

So, I do understand how the philosophy of teaching dogs in a PR way doesn't transfer perfectly onto human-human teaching. It's not quite parallel when you're dealing with two different species and especially when one of them is a primate! Very different. It should definitely be something we strive for and from a behavioral standpoint, we do all operate conceptually the same way. It's more effective to utilize PR with humans. But our interactions and how we relate to one another is significantly varied between dogs and humans. Just my .02 worth.
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  #49  
Old 11-23-2012, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenmagick View Post
Not to turn this into a debate, but I do have issues with the idea of "as long as it works its all good". WHY it works is very important.
I have remarked on that very thing many times in the past. I hate it when people keep chanting "whatever works...." Or, "It works." That's not all she wrote. I am not impressed with something someone teaches a dog when the only thing that matters to them is if it worked. What did the dog have to go through to get it working? What did it do to the relationship between the human and dog? What kind of long term wear and tear might this be doing? There is so much more than....It's working so it must automatically be good.
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  #50  
Old 11-23-2012, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doberluv View Post
I hate it when people keep chanting "whatever works...." Or, "It works." That's not all she wrote. I am not impressed with something someone teaches a dog when the only thing that matters to them is if it worked. What did the dog have to go through to get it working? What did it do to the relationship between the human and dog? What kind of long term wear and tear might this be doing? There is so much more than....It's working so it must automatically be good.
FWIW, For some people (myself included), "whatever works" doesn't mean we don't care why, and/or that we don't understand why, but rather that we have absolutely zero interest in a discussion on the topic at that moment and are attempting to politely deflect and dismiss the person so we can get back to work

I'm sure there are people who truly don't care, but I'm hardly unique in my use of the phrase.
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