Breeding Standards

Pops2

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#21
Our breed club just finished up a final version of our Code of Ethics. It's 3 pages long and the breeding section has 19 points. This doesn't mean that all parents are to be perfect, but they should have their health checks and be representative (rated Very Good at least) examples of the breed type and have correct temperament. There are limits on age, and a limit of 4 litters for bitches.

My dog has allergies, so he will not be breed.
i'm going to disagree w/ that thought process, it is too easy to lose a blood line & genetic variation when you do that. which makes it that much easier for one prepotent stud to become a fad that bottlenecks a breed.
 

AdrianneIsabel

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#22
It can be really hard because you have to depend on people to be honest, there is no way to prove if a dog has seizures or not. There are some foreign databases that can be really useful for Tervs and Groens but sadly, very few Mal or Laeken people seem to participate in them. Which might give the idea that epilepsy is not a concern in those varieties and I really wish that were the case. It would make it easier to improve if two of the four varieties didn't have an epilepsy issue. I think it has to do with so many Mals being bred by people who are in the business of breeding and selling working dogs. It looks bad for business to be too upfront about any potential issues. Also, breeders who keep their dogs kenneled may never see seizuring if it did happen.

It wasn't all that long ago that Groen and Terv people weren't all that forthcoming about seizuring either. I remember when I first got involved, the Terv people used to claim it was an issue in Black Dogs but not Tervs. And the Black Dog people would say it was "a Terv problem". I'm glad the hairy crowd has become more open but there still isn't total honesty there either. Looking at the databases, there's very few American dogs listed with epilepsy compared to European dogs. Of course there's fewer dogs here but I personally know quite a lot of dogs who seizure or produced it that aren't listed.

Here's some of the databases:

http://www.belgian-epilepsy.dk/liste.htm

This is probably the biggest database but just a handful of Mals with epilepsy listed, some working and some show. You can search for Mals and pull down the second choice bar for "with epilepsy".

http://baza.belgi.pl/

So my answer is, I wish I had an easy answer for you. Your best bet is to try to find the most honest, upfront and knowledgeable people involved with Mals and see what they are willing to tell you. At least with your own dogs to start with. You can ask on different email lists, FB groups or forums if anyone is willing to talk privately with you about pedigree research regarding epilepsy in working line Mals. Hopefully one day, we will have a genetic marker for epilepsy in all of the Belgians and will be able to make truly accurate breeding choices regarding epilepsy.
Thank you very much, that's more than I've gotten elsewise, I think you're right about too many mal people brushing it off as a nonissue.
 

Romy

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#23
i'm going to disagree w/ that thought process, it is too easy to lose a blood line & genetic variation when you do that. which makes it that much easier for one prepotent stud to become a fad that bottlenecks a breed.
I'd say too that it depends on the breed and the bitch. Some breeds 1-3 puppies per litter is the norm. Others 10+. It's probably not as necessary with breeds that produce 10+ to have more than four litters. Others, 4-5 puppies produced over the lifetime of the bitch is hardly anything at all when you're trying to pick the best to continue a line.

Then some bitches have a really easy time whelping and everything. Some have a really hard time with it. You don't want to put her health at risk by overbreeding and some girls it isn't an issue.
 

Pops2

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#24
I'd say too that it depends on the breed and the bitch. Some breeds 1-3 puppies per litter is the norm. Others 10+. It's probably not as necessary with breeds that produce 10+ to have more than four litters. Others, 4-5 puppies produced over the lifetime of the bitch is hardly anything at all when you're trying to pick the best to continue a line.

Then some bitches have a really easy time whelping and everything. Some have a really hard time with it. You don't want to put her health at risk by overbreeding and some girls it isn't an issue.
shouldn't the breeder know that before they rebreed a bitch? but the COE takes those decisions out of the breeders' hands & puts them at risk of disciplinary action, none of which may actually benefit the breed's health or genetic diversity.
 

Flyinsbt

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#25
shouldn't the breeder know that before they rebreed a bitch? but the COE takes those decisions out of the breeders' hands & puts them at risk of disciplinary action, none of which may actually benefit the breed's health or genetic diversity.
I really think 4 litters is enough. If you haven't produced what you need out of 4 litters, chances are that you aren't going to. Increasing genetic diversity would involve breeding more bitches, not the same bitch over and over.
 

Lyzelle

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#27
Many breeds live to an easy 10. It's not like you're waiting a year for pups. Six months total, maybe, that the bitch is out? And even then, early pregnancy you could still do a weekend show or two. Once the pups are more independent, again, easy.

There's plenty of time to still do things.
 

adojrts

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#29
When it comes to breeding I will not compromise on working ability, appropriate drives, temperament or health. I will however on conformation because I firmly believe that structure is the easiest thing to improve or ruin. The evidence is there with how breeders can and do so drastically change a 'standard' to suit the needs of the show ring and the lastest fad.
 

Lyzelle

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#30
How late are people breeding?
Depends on the breed. 4-6 months out of 10 years isn't that big of a deal. Nor is a total of 2 years for 4 small to medium litters, if the bitch is producing quality pups and having no issues. There's plenty of time to show, work, and whatever else.

People seem to get the idea that dogs are only worth any time as long as they are under 5. Then, yeah, you have NO time to do much of anything. But there's no reason why older dogs who are healthy shouldn't be able to work and show, even if they've had down time for a litter.

2 litters per year for 3 years? Sure. Maybe excessive. 4 litters total in the span of 10-12 years? Not really. Especially if there's only 3-4 pups per litter.
 

Lyzelle

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#32
I think she is asking how late, like I have known a few bitches bred up to 7 years but not many any older.
I guess that depends on the breed, too. With something like a mastiff, you gamble more. They don't live as long and you might not get everything done that you need/want to before you have a small window to breed/not breed.

With something like a Sibe, as long as the bitch was healthy in all regards, I wouldn't worry as much about breeding between 5-7 years old, which gives 5 years to start working and show titles, plus pretty much all health testing can be done by then. It really, really depends on the breed, and also on the individual bitch.
 

Flyinsbt

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#33
With something like a Sibe, as long as the bitch was healthy in all regards, I wouldn't worry as much about breeding between 5-7 years old, which gives 5 years to start working and show titles, plus pretty much all health testing can be done by then. It really, really depends on the breed, and also on the individual bitch.
I wound up spaying my bitches after their single litter. In Tully's case, I was going to do it anyway, because I was hesitant about breeding her anyway, I decided to give her one crack at it, and if it worked, good, if not, it wasn't meant to be. And then we had problems with the whelping, so yeah, spayed pronto.

In Tess' case, I kept her intact for awhile after her litter, because I was contemplating another litter from her. Ultimately, I spayed her because her heat cycles interfered too much with our activities. And that is one of the problems of trying to breed and work with the same bitch. Heat cycles are an issue. Okay for conformation showing, though in a coated breed, they cause problems (as does having a litter). For most performance sports, they interfere with training and competition. When I decided to spay Tess, it was because she was in all likelihood going to be in season for World Team Tryouts. And I could have taken her to tryouts in season, it's allowed. But it would mean traveling and staying in a motel with her in season... not all that fun. And I have no idea if she can run agility in season. The club barn I practice in doesn't allow bitches in season. I have a friend who would let me use her barn with Tess in season, and for awhile I was in a class in a private barn where it was allowed, but she had to wear pants. She moved about half speed. I don't know if she moved half speed because of the pants, or because she felt bloated.

So... spayed. And I really regret it sometimes, when I look at the quality of the 2 pups I got from her. But I do have her son, and I've collected on him in case anything happens, so the bloodline won't be lost.

Anyway, all that is another consideration when talking about breeding multiple litters from a bitch. This also means multiple seasons, so it isn't just the time for the litters that you lose, you lose a couple months out of every year (average).
 

AdrianneIsabel

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#34
They do seem to try and cycle right when you're going to worlds or the like. LOL

Sloan was scheduled to come into heat during dock dogs worlds but then when we didn't go she didn't come in.

bitch.
 

Shai

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#35
Anyway, all that is another consideration when talking about breeding multiple litters from a bitch. This also means multiple seasons, so it isn't just the time for the litters that you lose, you lose a couple months out of every year (average).
Exactly

And it's not just out of age 0 to 10...even saying the dog can really work competitively til age 10 (the plausibility of that is going to vary widely based on how you define competitively...)...figure for most work you're not really working/competing until the dog is 2 or so...then working your way up through the ranks/levels...so now you're down to 8 years at best... Lose two months of the year for heat cycle...which as mentioned ALWAYS has to fall during competition...we don't get to trial much here but Mira's heats fell right over our fall run so we lost three weekends of trials we actually got in to...she's set to go into heat over breed nationals next year so then I get to debate, so I really go and commit to that expense knowing I may have to pull her from everything but conformation and have an in-heat dog in a hotel filled with intact dogs all week...projected heat timing puts her planned puppies right over agility Nationals in 2014...so the soonest we will get a chance to go to nationals is 2015...

And you generally have to get the girl conditioned back up after a litter, normally (there are always exceptions) it's not just sending puppies home and hopping straight back in the ring...

I mean it depends on what you do with the dog...some things you can start earlier and get by with more but having your main competition dog being an intact female plus taking time out for a litter (or four or whatever) is not a small sacrifice. And that's not even talking about the money investment...this is just time...
 

Romy

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#36
I think she is asking how late, like I have known a few bitches bred up to 7 years but not many any older.
It depends. Kaia's grand dam was bred for her first litter at 9 years old. Some lines in borzois can take 4-5 years to mature. If you're trying to breed away from osteosarcoma, bloat, etc. that doesn't typically show up until they're older then the best way to do it is wait until they're older. The big drawback is they might die before then, and you only get one or two litters.

Part of it is how many times a bitch has gone into season. Every season they lose some uterine tone. In a breed like collies, they go into season 2x a year starting at 6 months. By the time she's 9 years old she'll have had 18-20 heat cycles. Contrast that with borzois and other primitive breeds that start after 1 year and only have them every 9 - 18 months. That's maybe 6-8 seasons.
 

Romy

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#38
How hard on a nine year old, giant breed, body is that?
Tig did great, she did end up having a c-section because one of the puppies was a moose. That can happen at any age though. She recovered really well, lived several healthy years after that. Borzois though typically live to 14 years, and I've met several healthy 15 year olds. That's really not typical of a giant breed (one of the reasons I chose this breed) so that breeding strategy might not translate to other giant breeds.

Kaia's aunt was 7 for her first and only litter. They scheduled a c-section because of her age, but she did really well with them too. Had no problems nursing and was a great mom. Both times the main regret was they were only able to get one litter out of them, because the puppies were pretty phenomenal and went on to be really successful.
 

Mr. Vega

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#39
There's been a lot of talk about breeders and breeding lately. I'm curious about a couple things...

1) If you have not bred, but plan to, what's in your "code of ethics?" Such as, what is the necessary health testing, necessary titles, whatever else that you WILL NOT compromise on for your dog, and/or the stud dog?

2) If you have bred a litter, did you end up compromising on anything? And for what reason?

What are things I wouldn't budge on (as of now)? Hips, elbows, eyes, BAER, DNA profiled.
Titles are just pieces of paper for yuppies to show off to their yuppy friends. A dog can be healthy and stronger than an ox and not have any papers, titles , ribbons, whatever. Dogs ought to have a good once over by the vet before their jeans get passed on. but all this hooey about titles is people promotin themseles.

DNA profile, don't even get me started. You could send a purebred toy poodle blood off and come back with labrador retriever shar pei mix

tell ya what i do do though for my clients -- I keep lots of semen for em. That's how to be successfull in a breeding. keepin lots and lots of semen to send to pepole for artiifical breeding
 

OwnedByBCs

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#40
1) If you have not bred, but plan to, what's in your "code of ethics?" Such as, what is the necessary health testing, necessary titles, whatever else that you WILL NOT compromise on for your dog, and/or the stud dog? Well, I have bred, but basically my dogs are required to have Good or better hips, normal elbows, CERF clear, CEA/CL/TNS tested clear (and I have never bred a carrier, nor do I plan to unless I have to) and BAER normal. I don't care about titles myself, but I will not breed a dog who has not been thoroughly worked on sheep. I would prefer to see the dog work myself, but sometimes I have to use a dog who lives very far away and I have to go off of videos and trial results. Perhaps one of the most important things to me is a great pedigree. I breed Border Collies from English and Scottish lineage, and that definitely starts out my search. I want to know pedigree information, because I know Border Collie pedigrees inside and out, and I have an idea of what lines will best compliment my dogs.

2) If you have bred a litter, did you end up compromising on anything? And for what reason? I guess you could say the litter between Pirate and Fiona is somewhat of a "compromise". I normally wouldn't be ok with breeding two white factored dogs, but my reasons are: 1. Both of them have such strong pigment, neither are "true" split faces. I am confident that the puppies will be fairly dark. 2. There are no two dogs who are more suitable for each other in temperament, structure and working ability. Fiona is soft where Pirate is strong, Pirate is angulated where Fiona is straight, and they both have the most fantastic temperaments. I couldn't justify not breeding them because of their markings.

Generally, I think a lot of people think I don't require enough from my dogs when I breed. Titles don't mean much to me, because I've been in the competition world (conformation, performance and working) to know that titles are mostly just incredibly expensive letters. I want to see work- that is what my breed is good for- but it doesn't matter to me if that was in a trial or at a farm. But... thats just me :)
 

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