Helping a rude player/play behaviors without e-collar

Merlin's play with other dogs could use some work. Right now we don't do the dog park or anything (just for the sake of training and avoiding negative interactions because his play style does **** other dogs off, understandably)

the thing is, even with dogs he does know/gets along with, he plays rudely.
Chases too closely, barks in faces, doesn't take cues to slow down or leave them alone, chase chase chase chase...he just gets nuts.

He loves things that move, and running dogs are like his drug and he can't handle it and goes deaf. Luckily for me he doesn't chase cars but when it comes to quick moving animals... oy.

Do you know how I would even go about helping this?

I would love tips on..

1) Nailing his recall even when he's in that kind of chase/play mode. Right now it always ends with me chasing him like an idiot...
2) Maybe teaching him to understand to LAY OFF other dogs when they obviously have had enough with being chased? (Oddly enough he had plenty of dog socialization, he is fine with dogs indoors, he gets along great with low key dogs and UNDERSTANDS when to back off...but when he's in that play mode and the game has begun and then they've had enough it's like WHAT? BARK! BARK! YOU WERE FINE WITH THIS BEFORE KEEP RUNNING! YES! WHAT? YES!)
3) Stop barking in their faces lol this one is lower priority because he loves it and dogs don't really tend to mind
4) Play chase nicely instead of chasing to bark and run them over..

I work with a behaviorist with him, and his reactivity has gotten SO MUCH BETTER but when it comes to this, she still is suggesting an e-collar and I would love to not do that...
do you guys think an e-collar is necessary? :/

He and Hank would be buddies. That's Hank to a T.

Obnoxious, motion reactive, barky, pushy, in your face jerk. To top it off Hank bites at faces and heels and has 0 natural respect for back off signs. Hank loves playing with Aussies though... I think he and Merlin would likely be buds.

With Hank honestly it is just pairing him up with dogs that handle him ok. He does well with boxers and aussies and bully types but tends to **** off some other more delicate dogs. At flyball he played well with a boston but she got tired after a few minutes (Hank doesn't tire) so we just had to physically separate them. It's just been management here... especially in the house because he is WAYYYY too much for the papillons.

I had to tether him a long time and I still correct him often. I have to be very consistent with it because it is so self rewarding.

Does it only happen after the play has started amicably? Like they are both having a nice time, Merlin gets a little too excited, and it escalates? Or does he try those behaviors with other dogs when off-leash, even if they don't like it from the start? I know you said he's fine with them indoors.

Has another dog ever corrected him in any way, or do they just clearly get overwhelmed and want out?

Will he play at all with a line dragging, or does that alter his behavior enough that it never gets going?

Yep, that's Hudson as well. Maybe that's why he plays better with Aussies than English Shepherds. I have been known to leash him and remove him from the activity/excitement if he gets too riled up. Sometimes it's enough to just hold him for a minute, while the Aussie owner holds her dog, to let the ADHD ones settle down.

Merlin and Hank would 100% be bros.
back off signs? what backoff signs? LETS BARK AND RUN!!

Ah yes, this sounds like Wesley's problems he's had. He would be playing, the dog would want to tone it down, and that would amp him up and make him growly bark and slam into the dog more. What ended up solving it was bringing really good treats so he would always come out of play when called, and after calling him giving him some time to come down from overarousal before being released back into the fray. Now if he does get to that point, he self corrects in that he runs over because he associates it with cookie time. But his tolerance has also gotten much higher too.

I may have missed something relating to this. But, honestly I would be really wary about using an e-collar for correcting poor dog interaction / dogs chasing/playing behavior.

I've used a e-collar on Kobe for laying the foundation of his recall, so I'm not against the use of it.

I just have seen dogs redirect aggression from an injury to the closest dog so many times that I would be really worried about things escalating as soon as the shock hits. I have seen it happen at the dog park before.

Just IMO. I have no helpful advice in those other regards. Priscilla was an obnoxious barker while dogs were playing so I stopped taking her there. Ollie was dog reactive so I stopped taking him there.

This is Cajun 100% and this is why it's really seldom that I take her and Juno to the park together. Everything starts out nice and wonderful, and then she escalates into the most obnoxious brat and does not relent or listen to Juno telling her to back the **** off.

It's totally triggered by motion with her too, if Juno is just casually hanging out and meandering around... fine. The moment she goes into a trot/run? BOOM Cajun is on top of her.

She ONLY does this with Juno though. Like I can take her to the dog park and she's absolutely appropriate with other dogs.

I didn't have luck with time outs. Granted I probably also wasn't the best at implementing them effectively, I just found them really frustrating for all of us. I do typically put an e-collar on her when I take them both to the park however the vibration setting seems to be enough to just snap her back to reality. Typically she might just need one warning and then she keeps it toned down the rest of the time. Of course I reward for appropriate behavior. I don't know how to get away frm needing the collar, and don't know that we'll ever get to that point BUT honestly... I would rather rely on this forever instead of putting up with the frustration of other techniques. I just want to be able to take my dogs to the park together, and with the collar I know it's not going to turn into an outing where I want to kill my dogs.

What are your honest objections to trying an ecollar under appropriate guidance to correct his behavior? He's not listening to you, he's not listening to the other dogs, you have to chase him down to grab his leash, and he's going to end up getting hurt if you allow this to continue.

I had the same issue with Indy. I used an ecollar. Only the vibration, which is an aversive for her, yes. For Enzo, the vibration is a reward, because I trained it differently because Enzo is a different dog, and the vibration means "COME HERE FOR COOKIES!!!!" whereas with my other collar, it beeped. That was her warning that if she didn't knock it the hell off she was going to get corrected. The same with Indy. She gets one warning with the vibration. If she doesn't knock it off immediately, she gets a correction a few seconds later. All of my dogs (except Harrison) are collar smart, unfortunately. I'm going to be buying a dummy collar for Indy for the dog park and for her when we hike. Harrison has no idea the difference, and I'm going to keep it that way. He only understands that if I yell "NO, BAD DOG" for doing something he shouldn't he doesn't even have to be on leash and close to me for me to reach out and "touch him" to give a correction.

And before anyone asks, yes, I have shocked myself at the highest setting until the collar timed out. I own a Dogtra 280ncp and a Petsafe collar from Petsmart.

They're extremely effective tools, but unless you have complete faith in your trainer that they KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING with them, DO NOT TRY THIS WITH YOUR DOG. Like RBark said, if used incorrectly, he can and possibly WILL start to associate other dogs with being corrected, though if he's so over aroused in play, he may not realize it, and if you pair it with your voice telling him to knock it off under no uncertain terms, you should be absolutely fine.

Ecollars get a terrible reputation, but they are a great tool, and can be abused like any other tool. I don't need to correct my dog into compliance, but I will absolutely correct them for noncompliance of a command they know and know absolutely well in all situations. Every single one of my dogs recalls has been proofed with an ecollar, and they all have stellar recalls off of any and everything.

I would look at why this is a priority for you to train.

There is a fairly good chance he could escalate when hit with enough of a shock to make him pause. It could cause irreparable damage to his dog playing skills or it could help (this is one of my big reasons I am not a fan of e collar training, simply that I have seen it back fire with people who know how to use it, have been using it for years and are well known for knowing how to use it. You never know how the dog will react till its too late)

Why does he need good dog on dog skills in a free play environment? What would happen if his manners got worse? Are there any alternatives to taking him to dog parks?

I agree will he play dragging a long line? What if every time he got over stimulated just pick up the long line and leave. No fuss, no anger, just leave. This sort of thing has worked with Dekka, (not the playing with other dogs, she does not do that), when she is over stimulated. You maintain self control or the game ends.

In doggy daycare I body block a lot and force dogs to take breaks a lot whenever one dog is looking like they've had enough or I think the dog's playing is escalating to where it might turn into a fight. Use a command like "Merlin that's enough" before you go and end play so eventually you'll be able to use just the command to stop things. But daycare is much, much smaller of an area than a dog park so I don't know how feasible body blocking will be, you'd need to try and stay close to the playing dogs. We also use a squirt bottle and I'll often squirt to get the dog's attention initially and cause him to pause so I can get myself in there and then body block to keep him from jumping right back in,, I force him to move on. But you might look like a crazy person running around the dog park with a squirt bottle. Plus lots of dogs ignore it completely. But body blocking is super helpful with really persistent dogs at work, especially those stronger than me or who are snappy if you grab collars/try to physically stop or restrain them.


Also just working on his leave it/stay and recall around movement would be good. If he's playing and you throw a toy can he recall mid run to the toy? Can he hold a stay if you're running around the room? Can he follow a leave it command while you're frantically wiggling around a toy even if he was just playing with it? These are movement related, stimulating things that you can practice with because you can have full control over whether or not he gets rewarded (use a long line or control the toy) and could help with control around dogs. If you could practice recalls outside of the dog park where he can see dogs running that might work as a distraction. I don't know if there's anywhere else you can go where he can watch dogs running around but not be at risk of actually interacting with them, but if you think of any give it a go. You could look into taking a recall training class (many places offer classes just on recalls) or find a control unleashed type of class. I know two training centers around here that offer classes based on the book control unleashed, so basically working around lots of distractions. These are the descriptions of the classes:

Personally.... I would only train around other dogs before I let him play with them. Allowing him free play to be rude is just reinforcing the behaviour because he's have a brilliant time, amazing fun.

Is there a reason he NEEDS to be off lead round the other dogs? Can you not out him on the lead when you see other dogs heading your way?

Are there any positive trainers you can access? There's plenty of ways to train a dog.... Ecollars are banned here, and we manage just fine. If your choice and preference is not to use one, there's no reason you should go against your free choice to train him as there are alternatives.

Does he recall off the dogs easily? If you train a stellar recall you can call him to you BEFORE he starts interacting with the other dogs, lead him up and bobs your uncle. Or use a known bombproof calm dog and use play as a reward.... For eg, Merlin is on lead, if he's cool calm and collected his reward is playing. Keep him on a long line, reel him in if he gets silly, rinse repeat. He will learn calm interactions mean he actually GETS an interaction.

This is my biggest worry.

But obviously it can work.

If I can't control my dog verbally, they don't get to just go off romping with dogs. them not listening to me while playing isn't an issue because they don't get to play with other dogs if they aren't able to stop when I say.

That said, that comes thru training, and lots of it without other dogs around. An ecollar can be used, but you can't just strap it on and go. There's a foundation and the dog most certainly can learn that the unpleasant stimulus is coming from YOU and not some random inanimate object or dog and what that stimulus means. It's called training.

I probably wouldn't use one for this means, because if I did use one, the training would have been done before being around any dogs and I probably wouldn't need it.

Long lines are ok too, i'd just grab and walk away. But then dogs get tangled and things can happen with that too, especially with dogs that like to wrestle more than just chase. Try breaking up a play session gone bad when a long line is involved, it isn't fun.

I agree that I just wouldn't let him play freely with other dogs until the training was in place, or he'll just practice and has no reason to stop.

I'd work with just one other dog around at first in a relatively small space like a fenced yard. If he's so overstimulated his mind is bye-bye and can take off to wherever he wants, he's not going to learn anything. A "three strikes" worked well for Squash, first around only Maisy until it was pretty solid before he even started going to the park. Gives them a couple of times to choose wisely or poorly before all the fun goes away.

Aeri and Kestrel have both had similar issues at various times. What has always worked for me is formally teaching (and enforcing) a 'cease and desist' cue.

- Pick a behavior from the other dog or from your dog that occurs right before escalation on either animal's part. This will be your cue to give your C&D cue.

- With your dog wearing a short line if necessary, start giving the C&D cue every time you see the behavior you selected. Give the dog 2 seconds (count in your head, not out loud) to respond. If the behavior does not end, quickly gather the dog up and time out for a minute. If the behavior *does* end, allow play to continue.

**Time outs are matter of fact walks to a location where your dog cannot play with others. They may be paired with a neutral no reward marker like 'oops', but do not include scolding. The dog must be quiet to be let out of time out.**

- When the dog is released from timeout, do so calmly, with no fanfare.

- Initially, be ready to give the C&D cue again quickly - it usually takes a few reps for the correlation to register with the dog.

**If you feel yourself getting frustrated, end the session. Ending the session instead of getting mad at your dog is always preferable!**

In general, I see dogs pick this up quite quickly. Some even start to learn the cue behavior that triggers your C&D cue and start to self moderate.

Aeri's actually been learning this with Kes recently because I was getting really annoyed at her grabbing him when she got wound up about something. It took 3 or 4 time outs over 2 days for her to understand what 'Enough!' means and now she will respond to it immediately and consistently, even stopping herself from re-engaging without reminders. Aeri is 4yo, so yea, long term behavior can still be very receptive to training like this!

This a million times over.

I would extremely uncomfortable using an e-collar or other physical correction in this situation because the odds of redirection and/or building a negative association with other dogs and worsening the problem are quite high.

Lily was a great help in teaching Scout appropriate play. I also monitored very closely and ended play by removing dogs to crates or whatever as needed. Most important thing is building value to listening to me in recall. Train away from distractions like other dogs at first and slowly add them in a little at a time as the dog becomes 80% or more successful at whatever you are working on.

I also taught Scout the cue "easy," which means take it down a notch and may include me stepping between. My parent's BC will actually come to me if she is being too overwhelming for him and wants me to interrupt. Whereas if he is wanting to keep going with play, but needs her to not be so over the top he will do an air snap thing, rest, and then re-engage play.

They play very nicely with their doggie friends and are quite good at monitored introductions with other nice dogs. However, due to the alarming number or people with really rude or outright aggressive dogs I do not allow any dogs we meet on the street, at the park, or etc. to come near us if I can help it.

These recent blog posts by Trisha have had me thinking on this topic lately as a matter of fact. The comment discussions are quite interesting also.
http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/theotherendoftheleash/doggy-day-care-fun-for-fido-or-not

http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/theotherendoftheleash/canine-aggression-case-study-fall-2014