Obnoxious biting

So Hank is kind of bitey (understatement). He is worst when trying to play and also cuddle. Bed time turns him into an insane piranha dog that hurts.

So I've tried leaving and/or removing him. Just now for example he got the zooms all around and on top of the bed. Then he calmed a bit and I sat down. He started rolling all over me and biting. I stood up immediately and he latched onto the soft fatty part of my upper arm. Hurt so bad!

I've also tried a firm no! And remove him or crate him.

I've also tried shoving a toy in his mouth so he just can't bite.

Praise for calmness. Etc

It all sort of kind of helps but seems a bandaid vs him actually learning anything. My trainer has said he is a very hard tempered dog. I'm pretty sure I could whack him with a 2x4 and he'd grin and do it again. It's different than my past dogs/breeds. He picks up on most things very fast but the biting and wildness not so much.

So what do you do with a dog that bites HARD during affection or anything else?

He does just really seem to be very tactile about his mouth. He sucks on blankets and has things in his mouth all the time. The problem is unlike mia who is also mouthy, Hank has no bite inhibition. His bites hurt, Mias dont. He does eventually settle in and get calm but that first 10 mins of excitement or so is really difficult to deal wih.

How's his impulse control? Have you done crate games with him? It sounds kind of like an act first, think later, can't control my thresholds type deal.

His impulse control isn't great but we have been working on it. We have done crate games some with him but are still at the beginning of the process. He is very good about staying in his crate till release though sometimes he launches on top of it vs going inside it.

I do appreciate his enthusiasm but we do need to work on slowing down. I have control unleashed but its in a box from my move. Hopefully I find it soon because I think it'll help.

We have been working impulse control at the door going outside though. He has to sit but he still likes to vault off me or the door then sit vs just sit. He does bite at me some in training but I have been able to redirect that biting better than during down time. We also work impulse control in play with tug and release games. And also on walks though tonight's walk was pretty bad. Bikes and joggers and dogs mostly. But prior to tonight he was doing much much better.

I'm not really sure how to implement impulse control with the biting though. Especially at bed time.

Oh and another weird thing is he will spend the entire time with his mouth wide open like an alligator and will just fling his head around and whack you that way. Even if you get him to calmly lie down If he's over excited his mouth wil be wide open... It's like he's waiting there ready to bite when he gets the opportunity. And his first response to excitement is to bite something- anything. I'd just prefer it not to be me..:

But once he's out of that mindless bite phase he's fine. Like now he is dead asleep and I'd probably have to drag him out of the bed. The bite fest happens a couple times a day.

The strategy for the dog I stayed with who had the same issue was to put him in a time out crate (different for his regular one) anytime he bit or get into bitey mode until he calmed down

I know it was effective, but I have NO idea of the training or underlying issues behind it.

Hi! You have a cattle dog.

I personally cue a "No biting". Both of my ACD's have decent impulse control, but they definitely get overstimulated during rough play. If they bite me too hard, then I tell them not to bite me. If they continue to try, I pick them up and put them away. Rider has good enough control that I normally do not have to use this. Tulsa is touch and go, but the older she gets the better it is. Consistency is something that HAS TO BE USED with these guys.

I'm not one that normally uses a crate for time outs, but since none of mine have crate issues I'm not against it for certain things. And my safety and increasing bad habits is one of those.

I typically pair redirection with a toy and the no bite together and find it has good results. But if you don't want to do that then you will need to teach him to chill the eff out when you ask him to.

Tulsa was a bad snuggle biter as well. I basically use the same protocol by asking her to knock it off. I do have a stuffy or something to act as a pacifier during these times as it kind of eases them into a more chill mindset I find. Again, I typically pair just because it sets them up for success. For example, if I give her a toy and she relaxes, I pet her slowly and praise. If she spits that toy out and bites me, I attempt a redirect and say "no biting". If she takes it, again with praise and chill out stuff. If she again escalates, I give one more chance before she goes away.

Tethering is something I highly recommend as well. This allows you a bit of control to implement an offswitch and often times you can bring them down a lot quicker.

Are you crating him at night?

Also, for bikers/joggers/vehicles, LAT is a great tool.

Obviously, coming from a bitework background what I do vs what you want to do is going to be different. I was bitten pretty hard by Harrison many many many times today working for his toy. I ignore them unless they draw blood and then I call a time out while he pretty much rebounds off of me until he's level headed enough to work through he commands that are stationary, like sit, down, wait, touch, ect.

I DO correct for biting too hard when we're playing with no toy. I usually give a no reward marker, and ignore him or tether him and play with someone else, or just make him chill the eff out. He will eventually settle, even when he's higher than a kite, and I give the reward marker and let him loose. Indy was the same way, and I eventually got her to understand that if teeth touch flesh with anything more than a light touch, game over, you're done, and if you intentionally bite me, (as she was somewhat wont to do when she was younger) she would get scruffed and crated immediately.

Harrison only requires a NRM or a quick scruff if there are no toys present to go back to being gentle, but still high and playing the game. I'm getting him used to me thumping him all over his body, all of his body parts getting grabbed, ears, jaws, top of his muzzle, tail, feet, ect, and as long as he keeps coming back for more of the shoving game, I let him snag my clothes. Because I always carry a tug on me, it's easy enough to get him to reorient on the tug, and then practice drive capping.

I'm currently sporting quite a few calf and back of my thigh and arm bruises from him getting super worked up and snagging me.

My hands are also pretty cut up, but he's a seven month old Mal, and those are all from toy misses.

I'd honestly do what Megan says. 123 strikes and you're out for at least a five minute time out in an incredibly boring environment, especially if you want this to stop.

You can teach him that he needs to be gentle when touching your skin with his mouth, but I followed someone elses advice for that, and I REALLY wish I knew where it was, but maybe someone can chime in on how to do that.

I agree with the 3 stikes and then timeout method. Worked really really well for my friends' cattle dog who they got at 9 months. After about a week of timeouts in a spare bedroom they just had to say "If you don't stop biting you have to go to your room" and he would stop.

Watson doesn't seem to understand timeouts, so I usually just remove myself when he gets over the top. It took a long time with him. He is still mouthy as heck but has excellent bite inhibition now and knows to stop when I say stop. Took a full year though.

The first time the teeth touch skin, I firmly say "NO BITE"! The next time, I startle them with a loud "YOWL" like a puppy would do to let the other littermate know the bite was too hard. Try to get their attention with your response and do it consistently. They do not like it and they stop if you keep doing it. It worked for Snoop Dogg and he was a consistent finger nibbler.

-Mark.

Yeah that's been our go to and it was working really well. He did seem to have a back slide last night and I'm not really sure why other than maybe 2 steps forward and 1 step back? We will get back to it tonight. He is motion reactive but more wanting to chase and bite vs bark. He rarely barks. He has come a long ways though considering how bad he was on our first walk together and how short of a time I've had him.

He's not nibbling really... I've dealt with that with Mia. He's biting hard enough that it bruises or busts my knuckles open. They are mostly pinching bites that leave 2 bruises where his bottom jaw and top jaw pinch my skin. It's over-stimulation bites... Trey did that some but he would heel. Hank has heeled a person once but tends to go for the arms. And Hank is a lot more persistent and stays in the bitey frame of mind longer. Trey only bit when you were running and he got too worked up. As soon as you stopped being exciting, he'd stop.

He does not care if I say ouch at all. That's how we did things with other dogs. Saying ouch makes him think we're playing a biting game and he gets more into it. Or conversely trying to shove him away makes him jump back at you (thinking you're wrestling) and then he bites again.

I think the crate or tether is what we're going to have to do. That plus shove a toy in his face.

He does sound a lot like Tulsa- rough play and snuggles are the biggest issues.

He is sleeping loose in my room now. It's gone really well so far but my room is empty save the bed since I have little furniture right now. Once he turns off, he's off all night. He sleeps at the foot of the bed (on the floor) most nights. Sometimes in the dog bed. He is very good about that. He has this big blue stuffed dog that does seem to work as a pacifier of sorts. He will hold it and suck on it and then calm down some. And he's usually pretty good about taking it when I shove it in his face.

It sounds like I'm mostly on the right track with the addition of crate in a boring room added on top of me just removing myself.

Gusto was terrible about that for a long time - and honestly the fix was him getting older. I never found anything that I was really comfortable doing that helped.

I realize it is maybe the least useful answer ever, but maybe good news that it might stop regardless of what you do or don't do? Gusto mostly stopped by about a year, I think. He still sometimes puts me in his mouth during play, but it isn't the out of control, painful sort of thing he used to do.

Obviously you are the one to decide, but if it were me and you are encountering supertiredandoverstimulatedandbitey snuggle time at night, I would put him away before it escalates to that. And I would leave him crated at night until he matures a little.

I personally think it is just reinforcing the behavior and until you have a solid cue to chill out (which is much easier to train while playing, IMO), it is better to just set him up for success by not putting him in that position. If he's super mentally exhausted, then let him up and see if he can handle it. Typically if they are tired and you are all relaxing they will just conk out and you are setting them up for success.

Just suggestions. From someone who has been nailed in the face one too many times from a certain red cattle dog. She's 6.5 months now and has graduated to calm morning snuggling and sleeps in bed about 1x/week without incident. It's been slow, but I definitely think the above helped her a lot. They learn quick that if you are nice, you can be out. If you aren't, then sucks for you.

If you're doing something he wants (so if he wants to be playing or snuggling) I'd teach him to hold a toy to keep it going. You'd first have to teach him to grab the toy on command and then require he keep it in his mouth for the play/petting to continue. If he drops it remove your attention for a second and then ask him to grab it again. If he doesn't that's fine but if he wants to continue interacting with you he needs to pick it up.

With Tucker we only required he grab a toy after he nipped the first time (so now if we say Ow Tucker! He runs and grabs a toy) so he only has to hold a toy if he's feeling nippy, not all of the time we're interacting.

What about the biting in a case like this:

We're playing frisbee and I am excited because he is all out about it. He's usually so-so with the frisbee. He missed and nailed my hand. At least I think he missed. My hand is turning blue right now.

Maybe cut back on the toy drive building a bit? I mean... I want lots of toy drive to work with but my hands keep getting in the way. We are interspersing it with commands like working on sit and down. He grabs really well on command and drops well. I think it is mostly my hand getting in the way. Bigger frisbee maybe? When we play with the tugs it's easier because I'm holding the rope not the toy.

He also got my upper arm again when I was sitting in the floor playing frisbee with him. Was circling around me then jumped up and pinched my arm.

I let toy misses go unless there are several in a row in which we end the game.

Leaping for toys I'm not offering isn't allowed. We take a time out and she has to down until she's chilled a bit.

Sounds like more overarousal, I would do more it's yer choice, like sit nicely for toys, and try not to get him whipped up for toys by being too exciting in movement or encouragement. If he's already very into it, being excited at him will send him over the edge from drive into just overarousal.

If I'm playing tug with Tucker and I pull the toy out of his mouth he isn't allowed to jump for it (if the toy doesn't go up high enough for him to have to bring his front feet off the ground then he is allowed to take it), that prevents a lot of misses.

You might also be able to teach him to grab toys in a more controlled manner. Teach a "leave it", "drop it", and a "take it" command. Hold out the toy, tell him to leave it then to take it. Tug a little bit, have him drop it and then take it again. Basically practice grabbing the toy a lot. If he nails your hand react with an "ouch" or "eh-eh" then end the game and withdraw all attention for a short amount of time (5-10 seconds) before trying it again. Maybe start with larger toys and get smaller to increase the difficulty once he understands he's supposed to avoid your hand.