Training foundation

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#1
Is there any training of young dogs away from stock, (besides the obvious Lie Down and Recall) that's recommended to prep for actual work on stock?

Some things that would come to my mind would be a left or right (or Away/Comebye), walk up, move away, walks off leash in rural settings, conditioning, etc.?

Or do you all feel all the training from the beginning should be done on stock?
 
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#2
I am not super experienced... But at this point my impression is that good recall and moving away from the pressure of a tool of some sort (similar to the way you teach a horse to longe) are the two really important things you can consistently teach well off of stock. In general stock are such a game changer that even dogs with perfect downs and directions, etc. off of stock will just lose their heads and have to relearn the rules. I mean, you can work on all of your herding commands off stock if you're creative, just don't be surprised if it doesn't do you too much good. Exercises for splitting visual and audal focus could be helpful as well. Stock work is just a pretty unique context and it seems like many dogs don't generalize basic obedience to it so well.
 

Beanie

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#3
There is actually a book that talks quite a bit about this subject and about a few clever ways to teach the commands when you're in the city and, obviously, have no stock:
http://www.amazon.com/Shorty-Guide-Raising-Young-Herding/dp/193194265X

Fair warning, there's a lot of dominance based training in the book. I was rather surprised by it though I don't know why as most older herding people believe you can't teach a dog without showing it who's boss and giving it a few come to Jesus moments. Don't take it as a literal how-to, just take the ideas she gives and apply them to your own life. What's really interesting is how she has an immune disorder and did a lot of training without really being able to even get out of bed, so I think there are really valuable ideas in here.

No, I absolutely don't think you should only teach these behaviours on stock. You certainly could, but if you don't have access to stock, I just can't come up with a very good reason to wait to teach the necessary behaviours. I honestly can't think of any sport that involves something that couldn't be broken down and taught as foundation behaviours to build upon at a later point... And laying a foundation just makes it easier. Think about it: would you rather walk into a pen with a dog who knows how to flank appropriately but might need arousal work to be able to perform them, OR walk in with a dog who needs arousal work and also needs to be taught the necessary behaviours from scratch? I'll take the former.
IME the foundation is a two-fold teaching your flanks, walk up, back, and that ilk - and also learning your dog, how your dog works, and how to work with your dog. You can't really teach balance without stock but you CAN begin to teach balance without WORKING the stock, something I started with P his first or second week with me.

As for conditioning, I think it would depend on the individual dog in question if there's anything specific that would need worked on versus just an overall fit dog with strength and stamina - you might reach out to Robert Porter and ask if he has any herding clients and what kind of exercises would be best to look at!


This is actually my favorite book on the subject but it's rather overwhelming because it's very spot on and detailed, but doesn't make a lot of sense if you've never worked stock or seen it done (repeatedly and by someone who knows what they are doing.)
http://www.amazon.com/Herding-Dogs-Progressive-Vergil-Holland/dp/0876056443
And I've heard great things about this book but I don't own it:
http://www.amazon.com/Stockdog-Savvy-Jeanne-Joy-Hartnagle-Taylor/dp/1577791061
 
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#4
Stockdog Savvy is definitely a good book if you're training a non-eyed breed. Many books miss addressing training hiccups common to dogs other than Kelpies or BC, but it's unusually well-rounded.

Also as an addendum to the first post I made, because I think its focus was a bit unhelpful, I'm not trying to discourage anyone from training off of stock. I tend to think that you should do both if possible. But I've already gotten to witness a few people get frustrated when their off-stock training for sides and so on didn't end up transferring very readily, so I think it's wise to be cautious about expectations.
 
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#5
The first (and only, so far) time my dog was brought to stock, he lost his damned mind. LOL! I honestly think he couldn't even hear me, wasn't even aware I was there, let alone listening to commands.
 

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