I'm hoping people won't read all the *science* and decide that an older dog is a lost cause and leave one sitting in the shelter for that reason, or leave one tied in the yard because "he missed the window."
This is the trouble with trying to discuss the topic of this thread. If you don't read what is said, you run the risk of misunderstanding what has been said, not only by the author, but by me. It was reiterated a few times by me and it was also written in the chapter that adult dogs can still be socialized, but it is much more difficult and it takes longer. And they may or may not be what they might have been, had they been habituated to novel things early on.
Wild animals need to get these things "figured out" much quicker or they'll run into false negatives more quickly and die. (being curious about something that turns out to be deadly dangerous..that they should have avoided)
Again....you'd have to read and understand what Jean Donaldson was explaining so well.
You can't change nature. If nature produces a stable temperament, you'll always have a stable temperament. If nature produces a fearful temperament, no amount of socialization is going to make it unfearful. You can certainly create positive associations, but in times of stress, when faced with the unknown, they'll revert to their core temperament.
Temperament is what the dog comes with. So no, you can't change temperament. But you can modify behavior to one degree or another. I have worked with many dogs that I consider to have a shaky or not so great temperament...weak nerves if you will. The behavior that presents stemming, in part from that temperament can be turned around in many cases to one degree or another. Yes, the underlying temperament is still there. I'm not or never have said that temperament can be changed. I said that you can have a dog with a good temperament and lousy behavior and visa versa. I've seen plenty of good dogs ruined by lousy handling. Sure, underneath, their temperament may be stable but that doesn't mean their behavior is normal.
And I've seen a lot of good dogs with lousy handling turn out all right. Toker, herself is an example of that. I feel that her temperament is quite good. However, as a previously abused youngster, she had some weird, fearful and scary behavior at times. With good handling subsequently, her behavior improved..her fearfulness disappeared in all but a single context. Her defensiveness disappeared altogether and the biting that went with it in one context.
Aloofness really has nothing to do with socialization. Unless of course you want slews of people to hand feed the dog. My aloof dogs have no problem walking through crowds of people. They just aren't "OMG! Pet me!" when doing so.
I disagree. Aloofness is part of certain temperaments. I know plenty about aloof dogs, my Doberman for example. And he too, could walk through crowds and a whole lot more than that. The point is that dogs bred to be aloof do well to have extra socialization. They'll still tend toward aloofness and that's okay. Some dogs are suppose to be a little aloof. But they can be harder to socialize because they're not that interested in people. Socializing hard-to-socialize breeds (ie: protection, guard dogs etc) is, imo, exceedingly important.
But again...wild animals have hard wired survival behaviors that our dogs don't have. It comes with being part of the food chain.
Yes, but domestic dogs are
still animals and
still have instincts and operate as animals even though they have this amazing bond with humans.
As for the "bubble", if it is so critical, it's a lot shorter than suggested. I haven't seen any puppies truly changed within the window of time from when acquired at 8 weeks and 4-5 months of age. Maybe there's a "bubble" before they're 8 weeks.
The sensitive period is from birth to about 3-5 months of age. How many puppies have you met that were raised with little to no human contact and locked up in a cage from birth to 4 months of age? Those puppies that are adopted can come around but it takes an extremely long time to gain their trust and habituate them or imprint them to novel things. So, no..they're not a lost cause, not all of them. Some never come around too well and may be better off being pts. Some do make progress. It's not cookie cutter.
So I guess I've just gotten lucky in that all the puppies I've raised without having slews of people hand feed them have never become fear biters? Hogwash
If you would read the OP, you would see that she is talking about covering all bases, taking it the extra mile. You've had a few puppies, right. That is still not a large study group or control group. You may have just gotten by because certain variables didn't happen to present that would, in combination with their temperament, cause a problem. People can't be assured how their dog is going to be as an adult, so it is recommended by most experts in dogs to socialize their pups to the hilt. Why risk it? Even right on this forum, we hear of dogs biting people because they're unsure, uncomfortable, fearful, even slightly fearful. No, it may not be all on account of a lack of early socialization. But if that were left out, wouldn't it have made sense to have that scary type of person feed the puppy treats when visiting from early puppy hood and create a positive association? Why wait till the dog is older and already having problems and try to undo his opinion of that kind of scary person?
And unless the OP is read, this discussion for me, is pretty fruitless because some of you bring up questions and quotes that
were addressed there. And I don't much care for having words put into my mouth that I never said or implied, such as people getting the idea from science that shelter dogs should be written off with no attempt to save them. That hits pretty hard because I've rehabilitated my share of shelter dogs that were pretty darn miserable, including Toker. She wasn't a shelter dog. She was found in a garbage bag in a ditch at 4 weeks of age. I never said that shelter dogs should be passed over...and nothing I've
ever read from science has said that either. But if you don't read, you don't see that and then make false assumptions.
Anyhow, I'd be interested in seeing any research studies by reliable sources, like university behavior departments and behavioral biologists, applied veterinary behaviorists, ethologists...(in other words, people who make it their life work to study, observe and learn these things) that conclude that socialization isn't particularly necessary during the period between birth and about 3-5 months of age in puppies.