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  #71  
Old 06-19-2013, 01:20 AM
D&Co D&Co is offline
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thank you mam, i think my pups will win at it, got this out near the barn month or so ago;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmtWFlARVzM
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  #72  
Old 06-19-2013, 01:46 AM
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JennSLK JennSLK is offline
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i have no issue with people using and breeding cross breeds for a purpose like you were saying. Health testing being done of course.

For sake of argument (so my opinion is clearer) lets say we decided to open the dobe books to rotties because maybe that would help.

Rotties are known for cancer, since genetics are incredibly complicated you have NO idea which genes could be passed on to the puppies. You could be breeding in better hearts into the dobes (and that is a huge maybe) but you very well could be breeding in cancer genes (yes cancer in some cases has been linked to genetics). On the flip side you could be breeding out cancer in rotties but breeding in the heart problems.

If genetics were simple your idea would work, but the aren't. Its the same reason hybrid vigor is a myth. You simply do not know which genes are being passed down, its a crap shoot.

Now from a strictly temperament/drive stand point then it can and does work.

Horses are a bit different. As a show jumper I don't really care what breed Im ridding as long as it can do the job. Horses are a very different mind set. But if you went up to a QH person who does halter seriously and told them to mix in a new breed to make a better horse they would not take it lightly

The majority of conformation people health test and are honestly doing their best to breed away from health issues in the breed, and breed into the longevity. Its a slow prossess and is not going to be fixed over night. Out crossing breeds would not be a quick 100% fix either, no were near.

Also in sports, conformation, working, ect.. certain bloodlines are coveted for their ability to do well in said event, or breeding. People don't want to mess with that.
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  #73  
Old 06-19-2013, 04:50 AM
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It's good to remember that crossbreeding isn't the be all end all of health in horses either. Impressive, the prolific quarter horse stallion to whom the genetic disease HYPP can be traced, had a thoroughbred sire and quarter horse dam. Arguably the worst hereditary illness to hit the breed is linked to a "crossbred." Breeding registries that were open to breeding in quarter horses such and Paints and appaloosas then had to contend to HYPP being introduced into their gene pools.
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  #74  
Old 06-19-2013, 06:09 AM
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I'm only going to echo what others have said but I think that for a lot of breeds, the modern working dog is the sport/performance dog.

Agility is a great example, that sport is huge. Why not breed (and crossbreed) with the aim of producing a top agility dog.

Ofcourse there are things I think we need to remember. First and foremost, as mentioned before, breeding for only 1 thing (drive, conformation, working ability) above all else will lead to issues. (lack of offswitches, loss of working drive, unbalanced temperments - for example) and we have to remember to be breeding all round good dogs.

In the past we have always developed breeds to excel in particular fields and area's that we desire/require them to excel in. One of these modern fields is performance/sport. Why not aim to create dogs that excel in it?
There are rooms for more breeds, and in the future we will loose breeds that are no longer viable.


I would rather see new, healthy, balanced breeds be developed and utilised for modern purposes than older, unhealthy, under/non utilised breeds being bred for no real reason other than preservation.
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  #75  
Old 06-19-2013, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruffiangirl View Post
I just hope that there can be a middle ground where dogs can have the "show dog look" and the brains to do sports with.
All of my dogs have been show bred and my current two mentally have a great temperament for sports. Summer especially. She is from an average show breeder who shows locally and whose dogs finish championships but she doesn't campaign them at the national level. Honestly, having been around many papillons hers are some of the best temperaments.

Like I said before, many of the really big name papillon people in the agility world (the type that are winning national championships and making the world team) also show their dogs.
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  #76  
Old 06-19-2013, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JennSLK View Post
If genetics were simple your idea would work, but the aren't. Its the same reason hybrid vigor is a myth. You simply do not know which genes are being passed down, its a crap shoot.
Hybrid vigor isn't a myth. As a former genetics student, this drives me nuts! Heterosis isn't something all hybrids will exhibit but it definitely does happen. It is traditionally referring to 'hybrids' across species (like a beefalo) or the case of sickle cell anemia where the hybrid (carrier) has a distinct advantage over the homozygous dominant (non carrier).

Increased genetic diversity is a good thing overall for any population though. I think a lot of breeds could benefit from it in the long run. Is it going to magically fix everything right away? No.

LOL my thread spawned a monster. I was really just trying to hypothetically find a situation where breeding against the show standard was beneficial to sports and mull that around in my head.
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  #77  
Old 06-19-2013, 07:42 AM
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AdrianneIsabel AdrianneIsabel is offline
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It's breeding, of course it became a monster. lol
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  #78  
Old 06-19-2013, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JennSLK View Post
If genetics were simple your idea would work, but the aren't. Its the same reason hybrid vigor is a myth. You simply do not know which genes are being passed down, its a crap shoot.
IF the genetics/inheritance of a particular problem is understood, then the inheritance/genetics of that particular problem is NOT a crap shoot. Sometimes genetics ARE that simple - like the LUA Dalmatian example. A genetically well understood, simply inherited problem with an easily introduced genetic improvement with a single outcross. How often do/will breeds have an opportunity like that, with such a simple fix? And yet look how people reacted. I realize that's one breed/club and one example, but it speaks sad volumes to me about human nature, the true relative importance of health vs. closed studbook in purebred dogs, and resistance to outcrossing.

Merles/double merles, and MDR1 inheritance are other examples of simple dominant/recessive traits whose inheritance is well understood and can be easily selected for/against. So sometimes, yes, genetics are that simple.

So IMO "should we crossbreed" isn't even a relevant question until "what is the inheritance of problem xyz?" is answered. And there are lots of inheritable diseases that are being studied right now to try to determine that.

Now, most of them are not going to have that simple, single-gene inheritance. And some of the problems themselves are not simply identifiable - eg "cancer" (mammary cancer? osteosarcoma? hemangiosarcoma? lymphoma?).

But even still it seems crazy to me to stubbornly cling to a known problem for fear of possibly introducing another problem. Genetic diversity is never a bad thing. Better the devil you know, I guess.
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  #79  
Old 06-19-2013, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruffiangirl View Post
I just hope that there can be a middle ground where dogs can have the "show dog look" and the brains to do sports with.
There absolutely can be.

Auggie's grandma, Payton's great-grandma, is Ch MACH4 PACH CD RN HS HIAs HXAs VCX

Auggie's dad is Ch MACH4 HSAs NAP NJP VCX

Both of these dogs have spent their entire lives on a farm working sheep too.


It can be done and in fact I greatly prefer it, and was the idea behind picking Payton as well. The difficulty is that trialing dogs in multiple venues can be difficult and expensive. If I wanted to Ch Payton I would probably have to hire a handler for him, and letting somebody else handle my dog sounds like the opposite of fun so I don't think I'll do it. But yes, there certainly can be a best of both worlds. It's just not super common in some breeds...
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  #80  
Old 06-19-2013, 10:19 AM
ruffiangirl ruffiangirl is offline
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nextdog I want to do both with, but since im in Canada and out Ch are, well kinda easy to get that will be the first thing we do.
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