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Old 04-01-2013, 10:19 PM
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Default AI Breeding Info? (Litter Size)

Okay, so Futurepuppy (right now's plan, anyhow) is going to have an already deceased Daddy, something that definitely could be used for the other thread about things that make casual dog owners balk, lol.

But anyway, the breeder is breeding her 4-year-old bitch back to her old dog, with frozen semen of his that she had saved. I am trying to educate myself more on the subject. Is it more likely to be a smaller litter because it is IA? She warned me that it might be small and she is planning on keeping two puppies. However, I do have slot #3. I'm just not sure if it's true or a myth, or somewhat true or what, haha.

So does anyone have any previous experience/knowledge about litter sizes to do with AI?
The dog has been dead about 15 years, I don't know when the semen was collected.

Thanks
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Old 04-01-2013, 10:46 PM
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Unfortunately my breeding for vet students book is packed away or I would open it to take a look at what it has to say, but a quick google turns up this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2621732
Quote:
Litter size was estimated to be 21.5% smaller in bitches inseminated with fresh semen compared with naturally mated bitches. Litter size in bitches inseminated with frozen semen was 23.3% smaller than in bitches inseminated with fresh semen.
So sounds like litter size goes naturally mated > inseminated with fresh semen > inseminated with frozen semen.

Quality of the semen is incredibly important and frozen pops seem to be quite... touchy. Frozen pops take less frequently than fresh sperm. Also, if he was older when he was collected, his sperm count could already have been low which can affect litter size and probability that it would take at all... but without knowing when he was collected it's hard to speculate on that. Some places will actually examine sperm count to determine if it's worth saving too. A 20 year old frozen pop could be perfectly fine or if the facility hasn't managed it properly it could be worthless.

Oh, from that same abstract:
Quote:
Pregnancies were obtained with fresh semen of inferior quality, although the litter size was smaller. With frozen semen no pregnancies resulted when the semen quality was poor.
So it looks like even if the sample is poor with fresh you can still get a smaller litter, but with crappy frozen semen you just get no litter at all.


There are a lot of variables that are unknown so it's hard to say. But from that study linked above it does appear that frozen semen can produce smaller litters.
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Old 04-01-2013, 11:43 PM
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When I had Tully inseminated with frozen semen, she conceived 6 puppies, which is a large litter for her line. I lost all but the one, but that wasn't a result of the semen, it was probably Tully.
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Old 04-02-2013, 05:55 AM
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Frozen semen is generally a one-time surgical insertion due to the shorter life span of the sperm --- once thawed they only live a few hours compared to the multiple breedings and days-long lifespan common in natural breedings. So it all depends on whether you get your timing and placement right. If you do and the semen's been properly handled there's no reason the litter should be smaller. If you don't the litter may be smaller or not take, depending how off the breeding is.

Timing it is easier than it used to be if you have a good repro vet, from what I understand. I hope that's true since mira's will be frozen AI
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Old 04-02-2013, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai View Post
Frozen semen is generally a one-time surgical insertion due to the shorter life span of the sperm --- once thawed they only live a few hours compared to the multiple breedings and days-long lifespan common in natural breedings. So it all depends on whether you get your timing and placement right. If you do and the semen's been properly handled there's no reason the litter should be smaller. If you don't the litter may be smaller or not take, depending how off the breeding is.

Timing it is easier than it used to be if you have a good repro vet, from what I understand. I hope that's true since mira's will be frozen AI
Flat coat people know. Listen to flat coat people haha.

Kaleb is a pupsicle and that was a litter of I believe 10 pups.
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Old 04-02-2013, 09:20 AM
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I think it all depends on the repro vet you use and their skill and the quality of steps along the way. I have a dog that was born in a litter of 10. She was born 9-1-2006. All 10 survived and are doing fine. The semen was collected in 1993. They did another litter a year later with the same stuff and had another litter and I think it was 10 again.
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Old 04-02-2013, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyPug View Post
Flat coat people know. Listen to flat coat people haha.
Definitely not a rare occurrence in the FCR world, yeah . Frozen or chilled & shipped. Cookie was a pupsicle from frozen semen that was at least a decade old out of a 6 yr old bitch and there were 5 supersize puppies 18-22oz at birth).
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Old 04-02-2013, 12:58 PM
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Semi-off topic, you're getting a BC right? Who's your breeder? And when does the little guy (or girl!) come home? I bet you're excited!
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Old 04-02-2013, 02:43 PM
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Yeah, I'll PM you.


ETA: Thanks for all the posts guys, I really appreciate it. Sounds like if it takes, there's no reason to think there won't be enough puppy to go around.
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Last edited by Oko; 04-02-2013 at 02:55 PM.
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Old 04-02-2013, 04:51 PM
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Well I've seen it go all ways, chilled breedings that didn't take, 10 year old frozen that resulted in I think it was 7 GSP pups (there were two of them in our show handling classes, VERY nicely built pups), and everything in between. In reality, as has been said, multiple factors are at play here, from the viability of the semen at the time of thawing, to the bitches viability when it comes to producing (IMO, one should breed a bitch natural before doing a frozen, just to know if she's a good producer, it lessons the waste of possibly invaluable genetic material, especially if you don't have a lot of his collection left).
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