Today my CAO defended me hehe!

gilles

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#41
I would not compare the protective styles of an lgd to a gsd. And regardless, a strange man coming out of seemingly nowhere and yelling will startle a lot of dogs. 6 months old or not. I had a similar situation with one of mine. She was 5 mos I think and I was leaving a hotel on new years night to take her to the bathroom. Anyway we walk out the door and a drunk college kid starts screaming g at his buddies about the police dog. Well she hit the end of the leash barking. I called her back and we kept walking. She was hackled and ready with her badself ;)

Anyway she hardly grew up to be a fearful dog in the least.
thanx! i am not sure why Djetzel keeps attacking me ...she needs to be less aggressive herself lol! just kidding
 

Romy

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#42
1- how many times i should say : the dog is very sweet and he will never is never aggressive with anybody , in fact his favorite place in the neighbourhood is to go into a hair salon so all the women there pet him! but it seems that all of you got this idea that he is aggressive just by barking at an asshole on the street! not sure why you keep bringing this up
2- will he be aggressive in the future???? who knows... i have the best pro trainer for him in the country and he will be training him for guard soon. he is an independent breed and will guard when he thinks he should. we will focus on training him to do so when we ask him to and not to attack unless asked to.
3- you keep saying i cannot control him ... the fact is i can...he is a puppy and i can control him as much as one can control any puppy . puppies sometimes can be difficult. on top of that he is CAO i cannot turn him into a cavalier kC ..if i wanted a Cavalier i would have got one!
4- yes he bit me once ...i was annoying trying to put drops in his ear....my 8 years old bichon bit me for the same reason! but he never did it again when i put drops in his ears...which shows he is learning
5- i can take a bone out of his mouth and he never ever bites !
6- after all he is a guardian dog and he will be hard to train...but i am doing my best. and yes i was proud of him yesterday he showed spirit and i would not kill that in him.
The point is not to kill that spirit. It's to channel it so that he only does it when a threat is real.

When he is grown you won't be able to physically control him. A dog like a CAO, I don't care if the person holding the leash is a 300 lb body builder, they will not be able to physically overpower the dog.

I do think it's great that you're socializing him so much, and that he's learning what is normal and good human behavior and what normal non threatening people act like. It's not necessarily a bad thing that he barked at that guy, the point is that he should have stopped when you told him to.

You never need to tell a dog like that when to defend you. They just will and that's why people get them. You will need to tell them when NOT to defend you, and he needs to listen.

I know you say dog bites are not a big deal in your country, but they are a big deal. A CAO can easily kill an adult human. It's not worth losing a human life because your dog doesn't respect you.

Also, the bite was a big deal and at the same time it wasn't. I would never ever do that to him again. It's a really good example of why you shouldn't use physical corrections or try to physically overpower a LGD. There are a few situations where I personally excuse dog bites.

1. Dog is defending their home, family, or self from a threatening person

2. Dog is sick or injured

3. Dog is a mom with puppies

Volka fit under 1 and 2 when he bit you.

I'll admit, one of my borzois got their leg hung up in a wire fence when they were 6 months old. They were dangling by the leg and screaming and screaming. I ran over and untangled them, and they bit the crap out of my arms and hand. No bites ever since then. The situation fit under criteria 2.
 

DJEtzel

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#44
This is a trainwreck.

No trainer that I've ever talked to or individual etc. has I ever heard of a 5 month old puppy protecting anything but himself.

IMO, it does not matter what breed it is, until a dog is mentally mature, it has no way of accurately using any instinct that it has in such a defensive state.

The OP has been bit by his dog once, but this is just par for course? Ridiculous. :rolleyes: This is not a stable dog defending its owner whatsoever.
 
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#45
so what? From the other descriptions this puppy hardly sounds unstable. a strange man appearing from nowhere to yell at you will cause MOST puppies to react, lab, herder, guardian, mutt. Some will bark, some will startle, some will run behind their owner. I'd be happy with standing their ground and careful watching with maybe a low growl. That's what I'd ideally like from a GSD. I can accept forward barking too and with an LGD I'd EXPECT it

The bite from trying to give medicine or drops? I'd say there is some relationship building that needs to be done, but it's still a puppy and there's time. Unless there are other factors, that by itself doesn't mean much either. my grandma's dog will bite her too if she tries to clip nails. That dog is her shadow in every way and they are great together. So she takes him in to get his nails clipped and have someone else do it. hardly a train wreck
 

DJEtzel

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#46
We can agree to disagree. He's harming the owner already, can't be controlled, and the owner is encouraging him to be startled at best, by strangers posing no threat. I have seen this a hundred times with breeds that aren't guardians - and it doesn't end well for them. This is only going to get worse.

I'm not saying that NO reaction is what should be happening or any reaction is unacceptable. My GSD may have barked at someone like that, too. BUT, calling it protection is not accurate at that age, and encouraging it is going to get them both in trouble in a city setting. Especially when the owner TELLS people that he's barking at that he's out of control. If I were the man, I would have called Animal Control or the next best thing on this person who's encouraging their out of control dog to bark and lunge at me.

eta- Pair all of that with an owner who is smacking their puppy in the face and correcting on a prong because they can't control the puppy or the biting and you have a recipe for disaster.
 

Romy

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#47
We can agree to disagree. He's harming the owner already, can't be controlled, and the owner is encouraging him to be startled at best, by strangers posing no threat. I have seen this a hundred times with breeds that aren't guardians - and it doesn't end well for them. This is only going to get worse.
If you and your trainers have never had hands on experience with LGDs, then you're not really in a position to say what is or isn't normal and stable developmentally. There's a reason why people say to get experience with them before getting one. Other breed type experience is not the same. In fact, it's very different.

Also, one of my borzois got their leg hung up in a wire fence when they were 6 months old. My own dog bit the everliving crap out of my arm and hands while I was cutting them free. Never ever been bit since then, and they've never bit anybody else. Doesn't make them unstable or a train wreck. Dogs, especially puppies, in pain don't always think rationally.

ETA: And nobody is saying that it's okay to encourage that behavior. Everybody is saying that it shouldn't be allowed. I don't think this is going to necessarily end in disaster though, as this dog is owned by someone willing to put in the time to train and build a relationship. It's just going to be really hard work because this is a situation with a really steep learning curve.
 

gilles

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#48
so what? From the other descriptions this puppy hardly sounds unstable. a strange man appearing from nowhere to yell at you will cause MOST puppies to react, lab, herder, guardian, mutt. Some will bark, some will startle, some will run behind their owner. I'd be happy with standing their ground and careful watching with maybe a low growl. That's what I'd ideally like from a GSD. I can accept forward barking too and with an LGD I'd EXPECT it

The bite from trying to give medicine or drops? I'd say there is some relationship building that needs to be done, but it's still a puppy and there's time. Unless there are other factors, that by itself doesn't mean much either. my grandma's dog will bite her too if she tries to clip nails. That dog is her shadow in every way and they are great together. So she takes him in to get his nails clipped and have someone else do it. hardly a train wreck
exactly and thanks .. i am not sure why djetzel keeps building up on something of her imagination... as you said my dog acts like a normal stable puppy and in FACT he is the friendliest puppy of the neighborhood and probably one of the friendliest i have seen...so i am not sure why she chose to ignore all these facts and just build up on some single incidents that any puppy can do. i have met on the street many people walking their dog like a yorkie or a chiwawa or a bichon...and many many of them are very aggressive with my dog and try to bite and all ...he just wags his tail( i did not crop his ears or magnificent tail) and wants to play and ignores all the aggressiveness of the other dog
 

Dogdragoness

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#49
1-well sorry guys but volka is not aggressive at at all and he surrounded with love and he adores kids and other dogs...
2- he did not show aggression towards that man, he showed some spirit and that is what his breed is ....after all he is a guardian and you cannot ask him to be circus dog.
3- the guy was pretty impolite and aggressive himself , he could have talked to me politely..it is an open parking lot with no gate and it was empty and there is nothing to worry about except i might steal the pavement!!!!!!!!! it is quite normal for people to walk across parking lots and usually the worker there says hello!
and volka was really cute acting like a grown up!
Izze used to do this and would have done this to anyone showing aggression towards me or if someone reached into the car at me.

Did that make her fearful" ? Uh ... No. As a former owner of an LGD ...I can tell you that this dog was not scared; he was protecting his "flock"
 

HayleyMarie

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#50
I am of the opinion of I was not there so I have no idea if that pup was fearful or was actually acting protective. I do know that guardian breeds can start acting protective at a young age. Heck Panzer started showing it at 7 months old, but it was subtle and it was not aggressive. It was blocking. There is no way I would allow Panzer act in the way that CAO pup did. I would instantly snap him out of it, redirect and there is no way I would stand there laughing thinking it was cute and funny. I would like to see you laugh next time he does that when he is over 100lbs and you cant handle him because he is stronger than you.

Work on lots of leave its and socialize the crap out of him. And it sounds like you are. Its your job to create a dog that is safe in public and hopefully create a well rounded dog. Just because if he fine with people now does not mean he will be once he hits maturity. My guess is he will become way more aloof and less tolerant of people and other dogs.

I wish you good luck.
 

ihartgonzo

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#51
maybe i'm missing a backstory, but a COA is a type of dog that will do that. I'd argue should. In a normal situation with normal people acting in a normal way, if a dog is fine, i'm fine. If someone quickly comes out of a room and speaks in an aggressive type tone to get a reaction from me, I'd expect a guardian breed of dog to react like that. I had to tell some people not to try and get reactions from my dogs because they might not like it.

now if you have a dog like this, it is YOUR job to make sure people people don't get hurt. Doing something like this is not a reason to get bitten by a dog. If your dog is going to get too big and you're not going to be able to control those situations, then you have to take steps to avoid them and keep everyone safe, especially your dog.
For once I agree with you ;)
A CAO is a SERIOUS breed... this ain't no GSD or Malinois. However, you as the owner must make every precaution to keep your dog under control, or he might have to pay with his life. Enroll in positive based dog training classes with a certified professional trainer who has experience with guardian breeds. If you really cannot hold your dog back, double leash him and attach one end to a flat collar and one to a head collar or something that you can use in case he tries to pull you down. Your dog should be protective, yes, but he should also be obedient and under control.
 

gilles

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#52
dog

Izze used to do this and would have done this to anyone showing aggression towards me or if someone reached into the car at me.

Did that make her fearful" ? Uh ... No. As a former owner of an LGD ...I can tell you that this dog was not scared; he was protecting his "flock"
thanks and yep he was not scared at all ! and normally he never does this . the dog can differentiate between play and aggression very well , he is smarter than we think.
 

gilles

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#53
I am of the opinion of I was not there so I have no idea if that pup was fearful or was actually acting protective. I do know that guardian breeds can start acting protective at a young age. Heck Panzer started showing it at 7 months old, but it was subtle and it was not aggressive. It was blocking. There is no way I would allow Panzer act in the way that CAO pup did. I would instantly snap him out of it, redirect and there is no way I would stand there laughing thinking it was cute and funny. I would like to see you laugh next time he does that when he is over 100lbs and you cant handle him because he is stronger than you.

Work on lots of leave its and socialize the crap out of him. And it sounds like you are. Its your job to create a dog that is safe in public and hopefully create a well rounded dog. Just because if he fine with people now does not mean he will be once he hits maturity. My guess is he will become way more aloof and less tolerant of people and other dogs.

I wish you good luck.
thanks ..and yes i am working on Volka extensively, i am on a sabbatical leave from work for one whole year and i have time with him...i hired the best trainer around and i work with volka many times a day. but he is growing so fast and so strong very quickly that i have to work harder and harder on him . he will be 6 months in about 10 days and he is now almost 94 lbs and can pull really hard when he wants to. Today i went to a park full of dogs of all kinds, and he was the main attraction lol! and he acted perfectly well with all the dogs , we even witnessed a serious dog fight between a GSD and a pibullmix and Volka just sat and watched from a distance and was not disturbed at all, very calm, while all other dogs around got agitated
 

Bunny82

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#54
Just popping in.

Even at his age I am not surprised that Volka responded the way he did. LGD's can show guardian/protection instincts at a very young age. Without seeing what happened I can't tell if it was actually true protection instincts kicking in or the pup being fearful but besides that what actually concerns me is the pup felt that this was a situation he needed to be the one to handle it. I cannot stress enough to the OP how important it is that his CAO trusts his decision making abilities because left to free think the dog will always go on the defensive and the day will come when he decides more than a bark is needed and the threat needs to be eliminated. This is a very dangerous situation. Right now the OP says he can control the dog. The day is going to come when he can't hold him back and that day is sooner rather than later. I don't care what kind of collars, halters, leashes, and other training equipment he invests in the OP is not going to be able to restrain a full grown CAO that has decided there is a threat that needs to be eliminated. The only leash that is going to hold that dog back is building a firm foundation of trust where the dog trusts the OP's decision making abilities 100% of the time to judge and assess each and every situation.

One other thing I will say that concerned me is the OP laughing about the situation and finding it cute. This is not a cute situation and needs to be handled very seriously. Am I saying break the dogs spirit and don't let him act like a CAO? Of course not. But he cannot be a risk to every person he encounters. I cannot stress how important it is for him to know the difference between a real and a perceived threat and more importantly trust that OP is capable of distinguishing the difference.

On the positives the OP does have a trainer, it sounds like the dog is being socialized, and he has taking a year off from his job to work with him. I think the OP sounds like he is putting in the time and effort to make this work. Maybe for an inexperienced owner a CAO is not the right choice of breed for their first big dog but he has him now and I think the best thing to do is to help the OP and guide him so he can do right.

OP, please know I am not saying any of these things to put you down. I just don't want to "see" something happens that ends up in a heartbreaking situation for all involved. I wish you and Volka many happy years together I really do.
 

gilles

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#55
thanks bunny i appreciate that.
i just want to assure you that volka is in good hands. i am with him practically all day. i just talked to the trainer who came back from a week of travel (shows) anyways i told him what happened and about some comments here on the forum and my concerns...... he was actually very happy because he knows volka and how sweet he is. he said that volka reacted like that because he loves me very much and he sensed my adrenaline going up and that i was uneasy when the man was aggressive to me. he said that this was purely a protective reaction sometimes takes many lessons for other dog to bring it out ( he trains LGD GSD police dogs) and he was talking about true protective and guarding instincts not useless aggressiveness
BUT: he said this is a double edge sword, if untrained volka can become out of control and make his own decisions when to protect. however his reaction will make it easier for the trainer to train him for guard and watch and he will work with him very closely and he is very optimistic and wants to show the dog as a proof of what a well trained CAO can do
 

Dogdragoness

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#56
I have seen a great many young LGDs this way ... Even showing protective or guardy tendencies as young as 5 mos. LGDs are not "normal" dogs in many instances and many of the "normal" rules don't apply.
 

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#57
Your reaction of trying to make your dog sound mean to a guy who did nothing wrong ("watch out, I can't hold him back for long!") says more about this than anything. We don't even have to look at the dog. Look at the owner. You're as bad as the people getting pit bulls to look badass.

Rather than using the moment to teach your dog true threat vs safety, you used it as a chance to make someone run in fear of your dog and have a good laugh about it.

Given your dog's background, just keep in mind his temperament may not be stable like a well-bred CAO. As such, YOU need to be stable enough to make up for that, and you reaction in this situation does not sound mature and in control like your dog needs.
 

gilles

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#58
Your reaction of trying to make your dog sound mean to a guy who did nothing wrong ("watch out, I can't hold him back for long!") says more about this than anything. We don't even have to look at the dog. Look at the owner. You're as bad as the people getting pit bulls to look badass.

Rather than using the moment to teach your dog true threat vs safety, you used it as a chance to make someone run in fear of your dog and have a good laugh about it.

Given your dog's background, just keep in mind his temperament may not be stable like a well-bred CAO. As such, YOU need to be stable enough to make up for that, and you reaction in this situation does not sound mature and in control like your dog needs.
1- you were not there to judge if the guy was a jerk or not ..the fact is he was a big jerk , and if i did not have the dog it would have been maybe worse with the way he was addressing me.
2- you dont know me and you are judging me as unstable..
3- my trainer who is one of the top professional trainers specialized in police and army dogs and LGDs and who is a member of the anti dog fighting movement in my country ( i am too and i dont want to talk about how much i have done for such a cause) well he was very happy with Volka's reaction and took it as a very positive sign.
4- as far as me scaring the guy ..this is the least he deserves, of course i did not mean what i said ..i was just messing with him.
anyways if you have read all the threads you would have known how much the dog is surrounded with love and care.....
 

gilles

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#59
I have seen a great many young LGDs this way ... Even showing protective or guardy tendencies as young as 5 mos. LGDs are not "normal" dogs in many instances and many of the "normal" rules don't apply.
thnks..you are right i donno why some members just made a big deal out of that ! he is just a CAO puppy and he acted like one like he is supposed to act ..+ if they read all the threads they would realize that Volka is extremely gentle and stable for a CAO and that he is very well taken care of...
 

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#60
1- you were not there to judge if the guy was a jerk or not ..the fact is he was a big jerk , and if i did not have the dog it would have been maybe worse with the way he was addressing me.
2- you dont know me and you are judging me as unstable..
3- my trainer who is one of the top professional trainers specialized in police and army dogs and LGDs and who is a member of the anti dog fighting movement in my country ( i am too and i dont want to talk about how much i have done for such a cause) well he was very happy with Volka's reaction and took it as a very positive sign.
4- as far as me scaring the guy ..this is the least he deserves, of course i did not mean what i said ..i was just messing with him.
anyways if you have read all the threads you would have known how much the dog is surrounded with love and care.....
All I have to go on is what you have posted, and based on that, you behaved in a manner that is not what this dog needs. You were not in danger, and rather than teaching your dog as much, you egged the situation on. If you are the type to go after someone like that man for talking rudely to you, you do indeed sound unstable. A strong dog needs a calm handler, not someone that gets all up in a huff every time someone uses a tone of voice they dislike.

I am not saying your dog reacted inappropriately. I am saying you did, and that worries me for the future of your dog.

I have no doubt you surround this dog with care and love, but that won't stop him from attacking a human when no threat is present if you don't do everything else right as well. Plenty of beloved dogs have killed humans.
 

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